Why not a 383 distributor?

[oldslow]

I am far from an expert on all things distributor, but why not a 383 on an Okrasa build? That distributor was standard on the early engines, and seemed to be fine on the pre-A Porsche. The 1300 Porsche was similar to an Okrasa build, especially if you add a bigger cam. Yes I’m aware it has a big advance curve, but how come it works on early engines and not for a vintage speed build?
_________________
- better to drive a slow car fast than fast car slow -

[Glenn]

I've seen them on okrasa engines.
_________________
Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"

Member #1009

#BlueSquare

עַם יִשְׂרָאֵל חַי

[tasb]

There’s no reason NOT to run a 383. They are typically more expensive and correct caps are harder to come by but there are alternative caps that are very affordable and of good quality. Where did you hear or read that they should be avoided?
_________________
Roads Scholar
1957 Kombi low mileage 36 hp governor equipped M 178 Slow Drag Winner 2014, 2015, 2018

1965 hardtop Deluxe Microbus owned since 1990 M 620 factory 12 v 1500cc

1961 (October)Single Cab- Road Trip Workhorse

Member# 2059

[heimlich]

Put whatever works for you.
_________________
www.vwnos.com [email protected]
Classic Brands. Classic Quality.
Not all parts are made the same. NOS OE/OEM parts made mainly in West Germany, Early Germany, and Early Brazil are where VW produced the best quality parts and best fitting products.
5% Off your order with coupon code: 5%OFF
Restored Distributors Available (<--Click here)

[tasb]

There’s two available right now on fleabay for $9.25 each which includes shipping. It is dark brown and has brass or copper contacts and comes in a Borg Warner NOS box.
_________________
Roads Scholar
1957 Kombi low mileage 36 hp governor equipped M 178 Slow Drag Winner 2014, 2015, 2018

1965 hardtop Deluxe Microbus owned since 1990 M 620 factory 12 v 1500cc

1961 (October)Single Cab- Road Trip Workhorse

Member# 2059

[EVfun]

Doesn't the 383 have about 30 degrees of centrifugal advance? That might be a bit much for an engine with an increased compression ratio.
_________________

[Frederik]

If one do a search for the "022" or "BR18" Porsche distributor on this forum you pretty much get a "-No, cant be used", "too much advance" or "too aggressive for vw use" response. So I get the question. The 383 has about the same full advance of 30deg (26-34) coming in at 2800-2900rpm, and is about just as aggressive.

If you go "historical" (not necessarily best):

If you go by the old "souping the Volkswagen" by Dick Morgan , the 383 (or BR2, BR3) was the gold standard for a okrasa (or other) build. Set to 5deg before TDC to get 35deg advance* and for 8.5:1 comp. using 95-100 octane fuel. They even included an instruction how to modify the BR8 to get the favourable 30deg mechanical advance out of it (drilling the "stop" hole bigger). I guess they just missed the VJ(R) 4 BR25 as I think the book was published in 1959.

The "Volkswagen handbook, by the editors of hot rod magazine" from 1963 list the BR8 or BR25 as part of the okrasa kit for 36hp and 40hp respectively by this time. The "010" (BR25 replacement and later industrial engine distributor) wasn't available until the mid 1960's so it would have been a late bloomer to use on a 36hp okrasa build. But it's basicly the same and has the same curve, maybe just not as "period correct".

*Yea you should set it to max advance, but this is how they described it back then. 383 has about 30 deg (26-34), BR2 28deg (24-32) and BR3 26deg (22-30) .

[tasb]

As above, it’s certainly at the top end of what is acceptable/safe. The later aluminum bodied distributors had several issued that were even more aggressive but they were intended only for Porsche.
_________________
Roads Scholar
1957 Kombi low mileage 36 hp governor equipped M 178 Slow Drag Winner 2014, 2015, 2018

1965 hardtop Deluxe Microbus owned since 1990 M 620 factory 12 v 1500cc

1961 (October)Single Cab- Road Trip Workhorse

Member# 2059

[[email protected]]

There was a vw guy forgot his name its been years since I emailed him ....but anyways he would machine/ modify any vw cast distributor to be used with the 383 distributor caps ...

[EVfun]

[[email protected]]

I remember asking him what he did to the cast distributors he said he machined the shaft to except the 383 cap ...
Here is a video of the setup on a speedwell usa supercharger with a 019 screamer distributor with 383 cap ... link below
https://youtu.be/yMsaVQBkgag?si=4Hw5PaJ50HfrfFVn

[tasb]

The top of the points cam is shorter on a 383 and other very early distributors. He would have had to cut the 019 cam shaft down while at the same time modifying the top of the cam to accurately accept the shorter rotor. Otherwise the rotor fit is a wobbly affair.

That’s a lot of unnecessary work in my opinion. A little research would have yielded a tall flat cap originally installed on Goliath and some other makes. The main difference besides a taller cap is an additional top screw making three.

The Garbe Lahmeyer distributor cap referenced in an above post, is a perfect fit on the 383 and other very early distributors.

_________________
Roads Scholar
1957 Kombi low mileage 36 hp governor equipped M 178 Slow Drag Winner 2014, 2015, 2018

1965 hardtop Deluxe Microbus owned since 1990 M 620 factory 12 v 1500cc

1961 (October)Single Cab- Road Trip Workhorse

Member# 2059

[tasb]

Make note of Fredeik’s statement that the published maximum advance is a range and not precise. In addition, the advance will vary some after 75 years of use.
_________________
Roads Scholar
1957 Kombi low mileage 36 hp governor equipped M 178 Slow Drag Winner 2014, 2015, 2018

1965 hardtop Deluxe Microbus owned since 1990 M 620 factory 12 v 1500cc

1961 (October)Single Cab- Road Trip Workhorse

Member# 2059

[Frederik]

Yes, the test values (as well as published advance curves) are the range that when tested was considered normal, not an exact curve.

This is the "advance curve" for the 383 (in red), plotted from vw specified test values and in/ compared to Porsche 022/BR18. Note deg. and rpm are as measured on distributor, for crank double it.

Note 2: Just looking at test values the 383 could start advancing earlier /in lower RPM. The 022 advancing more aggressive in the lower rpm range, but the 383 reach max advance slightly earlier.The maximum advance could also be slightly more on the 383 (but it has a wider accepted range). BUT in reality they could test exactly the same and still be considered within spec.

[Alstrup]

Hello.
A couple of thoughts on ignition.
for the longest time the ignition system has been sort of overlooked in the hobby car society. If it can make a spark then it must be ok. On top of that "we" have been force fed with the "009" terminology. A few has dared to be different. CB and Pertronix to name a couple. however, these companies are not overly interesting in the older ACVW & Porsche commumity.

Now. I AM aware that we are talking more looks than functionality here but still. One thing to keep in mind when looking into these older distributors is, what engine were they originally made for? Remember, the old 30 and 36 hp engines had a hemiísh style combustion chamber along with 6 or 6,6 CR. 356 Pre A 7-1 and later 8-1. This low compression, along with hemi style chambers made for a very poor fuel mix, which again required a lot of ignition timing for the burn to complete even fairly well before it was too late. This is why these old distributors have such a long timing curve.
If you are building- or running an engine like that, then the timing is probably not that far of, though it can easily be improved.
The moment you change just one parameter, being it compression, chamber shape or something else directly affecting the flame propagandation, this timing curve goes out the window.
To illustrate. The last Okrasa style engine I built was a 74 x 80 mm using modified Fiat 124 pistons in order to get the CR up to what I wanted. (9-1) The problem with this was that the spark plug became everso slightly shadowed in relation to the opposite side of the chamber due to the half dome on the pistons. But, due to the larger bore I was able to create a nice quench area on the outer diameter so the fuel mix was good and where it was supposed to be. In spite of the slightly shadowed far side of the chamber this engine (with dual 36 Weber) ended with 10 degrees idle, 20 @ 2000 and 30 @ 2800. In fact very close to a standard 009 curve.
If i had used a 022, 383 or a 010 distributor in this engine i would have lost a lot of lower rpm driveability as well as having had to richen it it up dramaticly to get a decent idle in spite of the chamber and fuel mix being better.
If i had used say a set of Okrasa 32 mm pbic carbs or similar the idle timing would have needed to be increased with 3-5 degrees in order to get a good idle. - Thats where the 019 comes into the picture. In spite of what other enthusiasts will tell you a 019 works much! better than a 010 in such engines, especially if you have more than stock cam duration.

Hope this helps.
T
_________________
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=435993

[tasb]

It does! Great synopsis. The only suggestion I can make is that with modification from stock the stock curve shouldn’t be thrown “ out the window” to me that’s a bit strong. With modification from stock ignition expect that some further modification will need to be considered.

Good illustration that bigger isn’t always better regarding the 010. The predecessor to the 019, a VJ 4 BR 8 was used the length of 36 hp Bus engine production of five years presumably because it was a good match while the predecessor to the 010, a VJ 4 BR 25 was used for only one year.
_________________
Roads Scholar
1957 Kombi low mileage 36 hp governor equipped M 178 Slow Drag Winner 2014, 2015, 2018

1965 hardtop Deluxe Microbus owned since 1990 M 620 factory 12 v 1500cc

1961 (October)Single Cab- Road Trip Workhorse

Member# 2059

[Frederik]

One "problem" with the "009" is the many different advance curves attributed to it. I'm not sure if I've found one true specification for it. Some might have to do with the different manufacturing (Bosch German, Brazil and all the Chinese copies), some might have to to with previous owner/tuner modifications to the spring (1 spring, 2 springs) and advance stop. It's fairly easy to modify.

The closest VW relative is the industrial engine 0 231 178 003 distributor. It basically looks like a 009, but has two springs. Advance for it start at 1400-1600rpm and it max out 23-27 degrees advance at 3500rpm. Some "tested" 009 advance curves are also very similar to it, but advance stop is at around 2600-3000rpm and 15-22 degrees. Others have it start earlier and advancing a bit faster.

For which ever vintage distributor chosen I guess it's a good idea to have it tested before use.

I'm in no way saying against Alstrup, on the contrary I find this very interesting and informative. I'm just not sure what curve you recommend? Or if it's strictly a distributor with approx 15deg built in advance, so it can be set to 15deg initial timing and not go over 30deg total advance?

Below are the the vw/Bosch advance curves for 010 (grey), 019 (red) and 003 (blue) with "tolerance range". The green is 010 "median" curve set to 30deg max, idle get 9deg. Yellow is 019 median set to 30 max, idle get 15. Purple is the 003, but "cut of" at 3000rpm, 10 deg idle. Light blue is my interpretation of the curve Alstrup described close to 009. As the advance curve for 009 is pretty linear, this was what I got for 10 deg idle, 20deg at 2000rpm and 30deg at 2800. But it's then more similar to the 010 than 019? It looks like what you would get if you tried to draw a straight line though the 010 graph and still be close to similar?

[Alstrup]

When I speak of a 009 curve I reflect to the German curve, also found as a base curve in the 034 distributor.
Most engines, even a stock 36 hp will wake up "quite a bit" relatively if you let it have say 3 degrees more timing from idle to about 2000 rpm. and you will be able to lean it out a good deal also.
_________________
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=435993

[heimlich]

The curve of a 009 is close to a 034. The top three points at 16, 18, and 20 degrees of a 009 go out of the boundary of the stock configuration. That secondary spring in a 034 really holds the points into specification.
_________________
www.vwnos.com [email protected]
Classic Brands. Classic Quality.
Not all parts are made the same. NOS OE/OEM parts made mainly in West Germany, Early Germany, and Early Brazil are where VW produced the best quality parts and best fitting products.
5% Off your order with coupon code: 5%OFF
Restored Distributors Available (<--Click here)

[Frederik]

Many of the later distributors of simular advance design will have similar advance curves, but not the same. I highly suspect it should not look like a 034.

The dual spring 034 should have a sharp bend early in it's curve. My understanding because one spring has some "slack" before it engage. The 034 should then advance slower and keep advancing to 3800rpm and end at 20-25 degrees (+ Initial timing of course).

I'm just guessing, as I've not seen original data, but I suspect the 009 curve should be more linear, more like its cusin, the dual spring 003. But as the weight differs have a slight kink. Advance to 20-25, but coming in earlier than both the 003 and 034, with a steeper curve (full advance at 2600-2800?).

All this is just semantics, I hear what you mean. But it helps me with the understanding looking at a curve.

Lets see if I understand this correct. The 019 advancing less (than both 009 and 010) from idle- 2000rpm (and then the whole rpm range) still being a good choice as it can be set to 30deg max and it will start at an initial setting of 13-17degrees from idle?

What do you think of vw "solution" of distributor for the 1964 1500s, the ZV/JCU 4R3? I mean the 1500s is not far off an mild 36hp okrasa build. Initial advance 10deg, end at 15-22deg at 4200rpm.

It has the looks with the cast iron body and older style condenser and predates the "010" and "019" (not vj 4 br25 or br8). It also has the "possibility" of an adjustable vacuum advance.

Edit: The VJU 4 BR 8 "is" a 019 with the same vacuum advance "possibility", but I'm curious about your input on the centrifugal advance on the ZV/JCU.

034 curve in green

ZV/JCU curve in orange (green "median" set to 10deg)