For those who are buying Mansispeed or are running Mansispeed

[dub84]

Hey everyone,

It’s been few years since frequenting the forums… but I’ve just taken ownership of a 1990 Vanagon Westfalia GL… for years I’ve been thinking about a Subie swap but have stumbled upon the sensational mansispeed EFI kit…

For the layman such as myself… can anyone answer the following:
Does running the stock injectors create that much of a downside? Can I run stock injectors and be satisfied with the improvements?
Same question for rockers…

I’m just wondering if I can be happy with mostly stock items or if I am essentially cheaping out on hidden gifts with the extra parts.

Cheers,
Parker

[bobbyblack]

I sure wish I were in your shoes of having the Mansi EFI and then having to think about stock rockers and injectors... I didn't know Mansi was dev'ing the EFI when I was going with the Gold injectors and rockers. What I found with them seemed to me to be a vast improvement over stock. I am still trying to save up for that EFI though. Looks good on paper. Not too spendy, etc. [hitting the Like button]
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'87 Westy 'Flossie','86 Westy 'R1','86 tintop GL - Subi2.2 'J2','83.5 stock tintop L 'ZoomBus','74 Karmann Ghia, '63 Notch

[Wildthings]

No experience with their kits but I would be wanting to know what the torque curve looked like between 1500 and 4000 rpms compared to stock as that is the speeds you are most apt to be running.

[dub84]

[0to60in6min]

I have Mansispeed injectors and rocker arms on my tintop Syncro since 2018.
Smooth idle, good acceleration on stop and go, easy to pass on freeway from 55 mph to 70 mph. I'd think there's some power gain but I don't know the percentage.

OEM injector, single port.

Mansispeed injector, 4 ports.

[MarkWard]

In general, any standalone engine management would need to be “tuned” to each engine. This would include a lot of variables. I don’t find that one tune fits all engines. VW, did a pretty good job with their stock tunes.

So basically injectors are rated at volume per hour or minute at 43 psi. “Bigger” injectors flow more fuel for a given on time. So, you’d want to compare flow numbers to see if one flows more or less fuel. This is adjusted in the tune with a standalone system to a point.

Another consideration is spray pattern and atomization. I have to imagine the four port injector does this better. At wide open throttle, injector pattern is probably less important.

No comment on ratio rockers other than what was mentioned, if they move the torque up into a range you don’t normally operate, not much benefit.

[Jake59]

This performance question would be a good one to put directly to Marco.
And because I already had his rockers inplace at the time I did my upgrade to his EFI and installed Manispeed injector at the same time as the EFI upgrade, I can not answer your question precisely.

However with performance set aside I can say the vast number of "gremlins" we chase in "why my van isn't running well" or "not running at all" can be attributed to the 30-40 year old EFI design, aging sensors and general wiring issues. With Marco's new EFI You are eliminating things like the AFM sensor and the Hall sender, both of which have given me trouble in the past. There is an updated TB sensor and the O2 sensor which are much improved, coil over plugs so no more rotor and spark plug lead issues (yes I was down for several months chasing what ended up being a bad spark plug lead) and atlast having a USB port connected to a tuning software is a major jump forward. What I am saying is 80-90% of the reasons people look at newer power plants (Subi, Tico, Bostig etc) is to get into the 21st century technology. You are now going there directly to 2022 by installing these new EFI kits

There has never been a question (in my mind) about the WBX mechanics (after the head gasket was solved) and it is a big reason I like to drive a Vanagon, that lower torque curve the sound and general feel of an opposing flat 4 engine design.
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Curent ride: 87 2WD Westy, 2012 Jetta Sportwagon 2.5S

Past Rides: 62 (23 window) Bus, 64 Ghai convertable, 68 single cab, 72 Super Bettle, 78 Bay window Bus, 84 GTI.

[therastavan]

A 4 port injector is not necessarily going to give better performance than a single on the Vanagon. Would be great if Manispeed would give printouts showing what if any power increase their injectors offer over cleaned OEM ones because I think what is happening with a lot of owners is that they upgrade to the Manispeed over dirty OEM injectors and notice the obvious power increase. But the question is whether they would notice a difference between the two if they had simply cleaned their original injectors with a service like Mr. Injector.

[0to60in6min]

The OEM injectors one mine were not dirty. The engine was freshly rebuilt (under 2K miles) and the rebuilder sent them out for cleaning and calibration.

[ronL]

Last year i replaced my original 1991 ( 88,000 mi) injectors with Marco's (mine were not even that dirty) and I noticed a difference in performance immediately. More power in the mid and upper range it made my camper a pleasure to drive again. Part of this upgrade included new wires, new fuel lines and filter starting from the tank and cleaning all the grounds in the van. Marco is the man...hoping to complete the job with his new EFI over this winter. All this seems a better alternative to a new engine, and way les expensive.

[Bub]

I have had Mansi's EFI since last year. Initially installed on an old engine i was going to rebuild, and went through some tunning issues after I swapped in a 'temporary' engine.
In some troubleshooting Marco actually told me that while he does prefer his injectors- since they're a thing he knows and has no suspicions about- but that any good working injector should be fine for his system. Your old injectors should provide as good a result with Microsquirt as they do on DIGI.
However, when you do these modifications/ upgrades if there is any troubleshooting to do, having a good known injector can save some headache.
I eventually got a set from an injector rebuilder service, Marco has no issues with that.
A new or rebuilt part should work well with just about any setup designed to fuel a WBX engine.

Must admit his kit is fairly awesome. The biggest downside is that the best, and almost ONLY, source of information about it is through him directly. So if you have issues you can't really isolate yourself you have to bug him and after a while you can feel like a burden, because he's a seriously nice guy.
I'm hoping he puts together a little tips and advice type thing so we can begin to manage the FI system without bugging him. Knowing why/when/how the LED blinks is good info. And also what sensors rely on what other sensors to work properly (like The AC idle compensation parameters do not seem to work if the TPS isn't accurate, and stuff like that).
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[valvecovergasket]

All of that stuff is pretty readily available MS info, if you feel like you're overwhelming him with questions

[Bub]

[mcdonaldk]

Only using the injectors. Made a big difference in performance. Nothing measured, just the seat of my pants feel. Well worth the the money. JMHO

[9.5isCanadian]

This is a long read but I wanted to be clear and provide some worthwhile information in case there are people on the fence regarding this kit.

Received my kit this past weekend and installed it over Friday night and Saturday.
The kit is of most excellent quality with attention to detail evident throughout. Each component is professionally built and packaged.
I thought I’d post up my overall experience with the kit for anyone that may be interested.
To start my base line van is an 87 high top Get-Away.
Last winter I put an new top end on including 2.2 cylinders and pistons, new heads complete, entirely new coolant system front to back, including GW thermostat housing. GW throttle body MansiSpeed injectors, Kyle Automotive harness. New wires, cap, rotor, plugs, air filter. Compression was an acceptable to me 160 range. All this is to say I was starting off in a pretty good place power and build wise.
Many in this thread are asking about “more power” to which I’d say that I don’t feel I have gotten any significant increase in power but that is not to say there’s been no improvement. For sure there is an increase in midrange usable power. This in turn makes for a very much improved “drivability” sense.
There’s a long climb near where I live that I routinely use as a gage for engine tuning / improvement. It has a light at the bottom so I can always start off in a known state. Stopped waiting for the light.
Wednesday before my kit arrived, I hit the Test Hill.
After the light turns green it was 35 seconds to high gear, 1 minute 45 seconds to the top of the climb holding high gear (just barely on the 2000rpm mark) terminal speed on the high side of 85 kph (if I lean way over and look at the speed-o I could almost say 90k).
Sunday, after driving around Saturday afternoon and evening with the MS-700 kit installed to ensure all was good, I drove to The Hill.
This time it was 22 seconds to high gear, pulled strong all the way, 1:22 to the top with a terminal speed of a solid 95 maybe even 100kph. 2200 / 2300 rpm.
None of these “test” are 1/4 mile drag simulations. Just pulling off the light normal accelerating in a daily driver method. The times are so close that I could easily have been more casual on the first day v/s the second day.
I then spent the rest of Sunday driving along a narrow lake view twisting road. Van stayed comfortably in high gear with speeds ranging from 60k to 80 / 90 where appropriate. It was nice to not have to jockey the box at each rise in the road or down shift through corners. The motor pulled well to allow for a relaxed cruise along the lake.
I’d definitely say the kit has changed the motor for the better. With out question worth every penny for me if not just for the improved way the motor sounds, runs and feels.
With all that said.
I was bummed that it still doesn’t idle smoothly, I have it set to 950rpm, as close as I can using the lap top rpm display but the fluctuation prevents a clear view. As of now it will sit at 950 +/- but will rise to 1050+/- and drop as low as 850 or so, I never really know. The timing advance swings from zero to as high as 40 deg advance. The motor stumbles, rpm drops, and the cycle repeats about 40 seconds between each cycle.
The second downer is that it won’t start without the gas pedal. I’d have expected it would kick over and start without that.
So all in all only two bummers but I’ll take the good with the bad and be happy with the other vast improvements the kit has provided.
I’ve started searching for tuning guides and such to see if I can ‘tune’ the starting enrichening. Interestingly I’ve just read that needing the gas pedal can either mean that it is currently too rich or too lean as depressing the gas pedal kicks the system into ‘flood clearing’, so turns off injector pulses to clear any excess fuel. I dunno I’ve only just started the learning process.
Good times ahead.

EDIT: I want to be clear that I understand this is a tunable system and in no way feel the product is defective because it won't idle smoothly etc. That part of the process is my responsibilty to learn how to tune it. Anecdotally, when it was rolling on the idle I did my usual walk to the back to see what what going on. Except now there's nothing to inspect. Walked back to the lap top and realize I've got some learn'n to do.
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9 1/2 - missing a few pieces.

1987 Getaway Hightop
1980 Sunroof Vanagon
2018 BMW R Nine T
2012 Golf tdi

[valvecovergasket]

theres a flood clear TPS threshold - beyond that it turns the injectors off. typically 75% or greater.
below that, needing throttle is a sign youre too rich. if i were to guess randomly, id assume that thats the case.

i think ive mentioned the idle tuning things in other ms/manispeed threads, theres a lot of moving pieces there.
definitely not an easy task to nail every engine config with a drop in kit covering a wild variety of engine/actuator conditions and installer/base tune skill sets.

[9.5isCanadian]

[marcotheturbosteamengine]

[9.5isCanadian]

[valvecovergasket]