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Dalecook321
Samba Member
Joined: February 23, 2025
Posts: 13
Location: Hampshire
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 Posted: Sun Feb 23, 2025 7:59 am Post subject: Oil dipstick question |
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Warning im a complete newbie, bought a 1973 fastback yesterday and it came with a dipstick ontop of the decklid, however i thought that the dipsticks were built into the filler. Looking down past the filler there is what seems to be a dipstick tube however the dipstick that was on the decklid has no rubber stopper and only goes in so fsr and comes out with no oil. Basically what im trying to ask is wether i need to buy a beetle dipstick to go in that 'dipstick tube' or if i need to get a new filler cap, thanks  |
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Mike Fisher
Samba Member
Joined: January 30, 2006
Posts: 18052
Location: Eugene, OR
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| Posted: Sun Feb 23, 2025 9:05 am Post subject: Re: Oil dipstick question |
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We need pictures of what you have, to identify it.
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69 FI/AT square Daily Driver
66 sunroof,67,70,71,71,71AT,72,72AT,73 Parts
two 57 oval ragtops sold
'68 Karmann Ghia sold
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BSQUARE
Samba Member
Joined: November 05, 2004
Posts: 1900
Location: Feeling, Minnesota
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| Posted: Sun Feb 23, 2025 10:02 am Post subject: Re: Oil dipstick question |
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It sounds like it's a Type 1 long block, dressed up to use in a Type 3.
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1968 Regatta Blue Squareback
1967 Granada Red Squareback
1971 Rattle-Can Red Westfalia Camper |
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Dalecook321
Samba Member
Joined: February 23, 2025
Posts: 13
Location: Hampshire
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| Posted: Sun Feb 23, 2025 11:49 am Post subject: Re: Oil dipstick question |
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| Mike Fisher wrote: |
| We need pictures of what you have, to identify it. |
Ive inserted an image of the 'dipstick tube', the bottom of the filler cap and one of the whole engine. Any help is appreciated! |
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BSQUARE
Samba Member
Joined: November 05, 2004
Posts: 1900
Location: Feeling, Minnesota
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| Posted: Sun Feb 23, 2025 12:32 pm Post subject: Re: Oil dipstick question |
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That's a Type 4 engine
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1968 Regatta Blue Squareback
1967 Granada Red Squareback
1971 Rattle-Can Red Westfalia Camper |
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Dalecook321
Samba Member
Joined: February 23, 2025
Posts: 13
Location: Hampshire
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| Posted: Sun Feb 23, 2025 1:12 pm Post subject: Re: Oil dipstick question |
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| BSQUARE wrote: |
| That's a Type 4 engine |
yes, just realised it's a w code engine . Thanks! |
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Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 23579
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Sun Feb 23, 2025 3:13 pm Post subject: Re: Oil dipstick question |
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| Dalecook321 wrote: |
| Mike Fisher wrote: |
| We need pictures of what you have, to identify it. |
Any help is appreciated! |
Just to the right of the breather box looks like the oil dipstick. Yes you do have a type 4 engine in a type 3. What you'll want to do is look for a block off plate or a tube bolted to the case on the right side to see if it has a bus oil filler set up hiding there. If not, then you'll have to find an early type 4 dipstick to get the right length stick to go into that tube (possibly from a 914).
How did the PO do the large cooling boot? Just asking as without one the engine will over heat.
I'm guessing you have to remove the bails on the breather box to add oil to the engine. This means you can remove the type 3 oil filler from the body (2 screws) and plate it over. I did that when I converted a type 1 engine to type 3 cooling and installed it in a type 3 car.
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Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
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| Tram wrote: |
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Dalecook321
Samba Member
Joined: February 23, 2025
Posts: 13
Location: Hampshire
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| Posted: Sun Feb 23, 2025 3:42 pm Post subject: Re: Oil dipstick question |
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| Bobnotch wrote: |
| Dalecook321 wrote: |
| Mike Fisher wrote: |
| We need pictures of what you have, to identify it. |
Any help is appreciated! |
Just to the right of the breather box looks like the oil dipstick. Yes you do have a type 4 engine in a type 3. What you'll want to do is look for a block off plate or a tube bolted to the case on the right side to see if it has a bus oil filler set up hiding there. If not, then you'll have to find an early type 4 dipstick to get the right length stick to go into that tube (possibly from a 914).
How did the PO do the large cooling boot? Just asking as without one the engine will over heat.
I'm guessing you have to remove the bails on the breather box to add oil to the engine. This means you can remove the type 3 oil filler from the body (2 screws) and plate it over. I did that when I converted a type 1 engine to type 3 cooling and installed it in a type 3 car. |
To reply to your questions about the dipstick i will hsve to go out and take a look in the morning, however i do know its a w code engine made in 71, meaning its either out of a type 4 or a 914. As for cooling are you talking about the large bellow that attaches from the fan shroud to the vents? I know it is missing that and i need to buy one. As far as i know the oil filler is still bolted to the engine. The car was a famous show car in the uk back in the 80s and 90s, was built by terry vickers in 85 and still had the type 3 engine in it then, not sure when the type 4 got thrown in. Will upload some photos of the car now, if you search up vw fastback vader photos of it from the 90s can be found |
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Dalecook321
Samba Member
Joined: February 23, 2025
Posts: 13
Location: Hampshire
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| Posted: Sun Feb 23, 2025 3:46 pm Post subject: Re: Oil dipstick question |
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Erik G
Samba Member
Joined: October 16, 2002
Posts: 13587
Location: Tejas!
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| Posted: Sun Feb 23, 2025 4:21 pm Post subject: Re: Oil dipstick question |
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| as far as I know you're going to have to make the cooling bellows, the type3 and type 4 are different. Someone was talking about making a 3d printed one. You might search for that |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23507
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Feb 24, 2025 8:42 am Post subject: Re: Oil dipstick question |
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This engine was a W series from a 411 wagon.
In the wagon version of the 411 and 412 cars the dipstick comes from down below similar to a type 3. You can see the dipstick tube in the very first photo he posted. It pokes out through the sheet metal behind the fan belt.
Yes....you need the connector boot or this engine will burn up.
Also you are missing the cooling flaps and flap actuator rod and thermostat assembly. This means in cold weather it's going to rarely get warmed up at all and will have lots of fuel in the oil, run like crap (already runs like crap with that center mounted carb compared to how it came factory).....and it will have a short life.
Ray |
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gtixpress
Samba Member
Joined: June 22, 2006
Posts: 322
Location: Mahomet, IL
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| Posted: Mon Feb 24, 2025 11:45 am Post subject: Re: Oil dipstick question |
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There is no way those measly little ducts on the side allow for enough cooling air for the engine.
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1969 VW Type 3 Squareback
2018 VW Atlas SE VR6 4Motion
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23507
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Feb 24, 2025 12:53 pm Post subject: Re: Oil dipstick question |
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| gtixpress wrote: |
| There is no way those measly little ducts on the side allow for enough cooling air for the engine. |
Yes, they do just fine. The 411 and 412 cars with type 4 engines had no more or less louver area and they cooled just fine.
What WILL overheat the engine is a lack of a sealed duct to the engine. It sucks blazing heat right off the muffler without it.
Ray |
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Dalecook321
Samba Member
Joined: February 23, 2025
Posts: 13
Location: Hampshire
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2025 3:45 pm Post subject: Re: Oil dipstick question |
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| Bobnotch wrote: |
| Dalecook321 wrote: |
| Mike Fisher wrote: |
| We need pictures of what you have, to identify it. |
Any help is appreciated! |
Just to the right of the breather box looks like the oil dipstick. Yes you do have a type 4 engine in a type 3. What you'll want to do is look for a block off plate or a tube bolted to the case on the right side to see if it has a bus oil filler set up hiding there. If not, then you'll have to find an early type 4 dipstick to get the right length stick to go into that tube (possibly from a 914).
How did the PO do the large cooling boot? Just asking as without one the engine will over heat.
I'm guessing you have to remove the bails on the breather box to add oil to the engine. This means you can remove the type 3 oil filler from the body (2 screws) and plate it over. I did that when I converted a type 1 engine to type 3 cooling and installed it in a type 3 car. |
Just wondered, upon further inspection you were right, the filler is plated off and the dipstick tube is dissconnected. If i remove these plates can i use a factory dipstick and use the filler again? |
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Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 23579
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2025 2:46 pm Post subject: Re: Oil dipstick question |
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| Dalecook321 wrote: |
| Bobnotch wrote: |
| Dalecook321 wrote: |
| Mike Fisher wrote: |
| We need pictures of what you have, to identify it. |
Any help is appreciated! |
Just to the right of the breather box looks like the oil dipstick. Yes you do have a type 4 engine in a type 3. What you'll want to do is look for a block off plate or a tube bolted to the case on the right side to see if it has a bus oil filler set up hiding there. If not, then you'll have to find an early type 4 dipstick to get the right length stick to go into that tube (possibly from a 914).
How did the PO do the large cooling boot? Just asking as without one the engine will over heat.
I'm guessing you have to remove the bails on the breather box to add oil to the engine. This means you can remove the type 3 oil filler from the body (2 screws) and plate it over. I did that when I converted a type 1 engine to type 3 cooling and installed it in a type 3 car. |
Just wondered, upon further inspection you were right, the filler is plated off and the dipstick tube is dissconnected. If i remove these plates can i use a factory dipstick and use the filler again? |
I doubt it. I only say that as the shapes for the tubing are different, and don't really intersect. Ray might know more on the T-4 engine side, but on the t-3 body side that oil fill tube passes thru 2 layers of sheet metal.
Another option would be to look for the filler tube assembly for a 914 as it'll sit where the breather box is (with the bail), and it'll have a screw on cap. That would make it easier to add oil. Maybe make up a longer handle on the existing dip stick that's already on the engine (we've pointed it out to you already) to make it easier to get to.
I'd search the orum for creating a cooling boot from the body to the engine, as Ray's right in that the engine will melt down without one. At the moment you can add oil and check it (just not thru the stock set up), so it's not really a problem. But the lack of a cooling boot IS.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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Dalecook321
Samba Member
Joined: February 23, 2025
Posts: 13
Location: Hampshire
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2025 12:28 am Post subject: Re: Oil dipstick question |
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[quote="Bobnotch"][quote="Dalecook321"]
| Bobnotch wrote: |
| Dalecook321 wrote: |
| Mike Fisher wrote: |
| We need pictures of what you have, to identify it. |
Any help is appreciated! |
I doubt it. I only say that as the shapes for the tubing are different, and don't really intersect. Ray might know more on the T-4 engine side, but on the t-3 body side that oil fill tube passes thru 2 layers of sheet metal.
Another option would be to look for the filler tube assembly for a 914 as it'll sit where the breather box is (with the bail), and it'll have a screw on cap. That would make it easier to add oil. Maybe make up a longer handle on the existing dip stick that's already on the engine (we've pointed it out to you already) to make it easier to get to.
I'd search the orum for creating a cooling boot from the body to the engine, as Ray's right in that the engine will melt down without one. At the moment you can add oil and check it (just not thru the stock set up), so it's not really a problem. But the lack of a cooling boot IS. |
Sorry, i must be confused, what dipstick tube. The only one i can see is the onr doen to the righf at the front of the engine, this normally connects into the filler which has been plated off, so the dipstick tube is no longer in use? |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23507
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2025 9:37 am Post subject: Re: Oil dipstick question |
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Let me see if I can add a little clarity here.
The engine case you have could have only come from one of TWO vehicle PLATFORMS.
From the engine code point if view, being a "W" series that marks it as either a 411 or 412 engine or from a Porsche 914. The W series was never used in the bus.
To further delineate and identify....the 411 and 412 SEDANS used the exact same dipstick set up as the Porsche 914.
BUT.....none of the pictures provided yet has pointed to the spot that would tell anyone whether the case was originally in a sedan. I will show you why in a moment.
AND....the oil dipstick configuration we CAN see in your photo....was ONLY used on the 411 and 412 WAGON engines and never on the Porsche 914 engines. A version of the 411/412 WAGON dipstick was used on the bay window buses....but they never had "W" series engine cases.
The "wildcard" here is that the flange to use the WAGON dipstick version is cast into all type 4 engine cases and with 5 minutes of work...anyone can convert a SEDAN engine case to use the WAGON dipstick system.
Check out these crappy picture. Sorry these are so bad. I just snapped the picture on the way out of the house.
So...in the crappy left hand picture which is from the Haynes Porsche 914 manual, the yellow arrow points to the dipstick tube next to teh oil chimney. This is used on all Porsche 914 and the 411 and 412 SEDANS.
Notice the flange in the yellow circle. In the sedans this flange area has simply not been bored out. It is left cast over. This is where the dipstick tube for the 411 and 412 WAGON bolts on.
The picture to the right is from the 411/412 parts catalog and shows teh parts group for both SEDAN and WAGON dipstick system.
So....what we need to see....
Standing at the rear of your car and looking forward, if this engine were ever a SEDAN engine from a 411/412 or 914....look/feel just to the foreward side (toward the front of the car) at about the 1:00 position to the square black oil chimney....you should find a bolt or plug...plugging the hole in the case where the original dipstick would have been.
If there is a bolt or plug or crimped off dipstick tube there....then this engine was from a 411/412 SEDAN or a 914 and the hole down below on the case was opened up with a hole saw to install the WAGON version of the dipstick tube.
If there is nothing there at the 1:00 postion near the oil chimney....and the case simply has a smooth spot there...it means your engine case is from a 411 or 412 WAGON and has always had the lower dipstick tube assembly.
What people aresaying is that the type 3 version of the lower dipstick tube assembly has really totally different parts and lengths and the type 4 assembly will not meet up. Likewise, going to a type 3 dipstick assembly will also not work because the type 4 engine you have is a totally different case....and the gist is that no matter what...you probably can cobble a mixture of parts together to use a type 3 dipstick assembly but you will have to shorten or lengthen the final dipstick end and do an experimental oil fill to get it to read correctly.
What I would do, is make a small plate to cap off the lower dipstick hole and simply drill out and install the upper dipstick by the oil chimney and put it up top. Ray
Ray |
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Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 23579
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2025 1:02 pm Post subject: Re: Oil dipstick question |
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| Dalecook321 wrote: |
Sorry, i must be confused, what dipstick tube. The only one i can see is the onr doen to the righf at the front of the engine, this normally connects into the filler which has been plated off, so the dipstick tube is no longer in use? |
If you look at the cut out to the right of the breather box, you can just see the dip stick handle in your picture. It also shows up in Ray's right hand picture too. This is the 914 set up. To use the tube set up, you'll have to drill out the case, along with drilling and tapping the the holes to add the external filler pipe that Ray posted above.
Yes, at this time the stock type 3 dip stick tube and stick are not being used (plated off) as the stick has been cut off and the cap is being used as a plug.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23507
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2025 6:29 pm Post subject: Re: Oil dipstick question |
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| Bobnotch wrote: |
| Dalecook321 wrote: |
Sorry, i must be confused, what dipstick tube. The only one i can see is the onr doen to the righf at the front of the engine, this normally connects into the filler which has been plated off, so the dipstick tube is no longer in use? |
If you look at the cut out to the right of the breather box, you can just see the dip stick handle in your picture. It also shows up in Ray's right hand picture too. This is the 914 set up. To use the tube set up, you'll have to drill out the case, along with drilling and tapping the the holes to add the external filler pipe that Ray posted above.
Yes, at this time the stock type 3 dip stick tube and stick are not being used (plated off) as the stick has been cut off and the cap is being used as a plug. |
I am trying to figure out where you are seeing a dipstick tube in that topside picture.
If the picture above, the thing (whatever it is) in the yellow circle is NOT a dipstick unlesssomething really strange has been done.
The distick on 411/412 sedans and 914 goes where the yello arrow is. You can see this in the inset picture of this case with the cooling shroud removed.
Above on the left is one of the first pictures he posted and you can see the arrow pointing to a dipstick sticking out from between the alternator belt and the shroud. The picture on the right shows where it would come from on a wagon version or a bus version.
Ray |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23507
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2025 12:09 pm Post subject: Re: Oil dipstick question |
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I just wanted to post a link to this thread from the bay window forum.
It has clear pictures of the parts you need...to work with what your engine has now.
Your engine has the lower PRIMARY dipstick tube assembly parts used by both the 411 and 412 wagons and the type 2 bay window bus.
The secondary parts ...the upper parts like the dipstick and upper tube itself...are different for both Bus and 411/412.
The upper 411/412 parts will not work in your type 3. The bus upper parts...meaning the dipstick only....is what you need.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9395164
So in the diagram in the thread at that link above...you have part #25 down below that looks to have been modified or patched. But it appears that the hole that went to the oil filler (whether it was originally from a 411/412 wagon or bus) is still there because I can see the oil fill tube sticking through the sheet metal rearward of the fan belt in the picture you PM'd me.
From your picture, the yellow arrow is pointing to the oil filling tube. Its hiding down underneath. Does it have a cap on it?
You just need the dipstick which is part # 58 in that diagram to use what parts you have now.
Ray |
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