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[email protected]
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 Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2025 3:31 pm Post subject: Re: Ferry Porsche Turbo VW38 Cabriolet |
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| It could be an Italmeccanica 1T 1100 supercharger but im not to sure..the one on that 1953 porsche 356 uses a pepco 1500 ... not the regular pepco 1100 that most vw guys use on their 36hps ..speedwell usa makes reproduction of the pepco 1100 supercharger..the pepco 1500 is a little longer I think that's why it's mounted like that bc it was to long to fit like the regular pepco 1100 that sits on top of the stock intake manifold.... |
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wagen19
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2025 9:00 am Post subject: Re: Ferry Porsche Turbo VW38 Cabriolet |
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| splitjunkie wrote: |
And it is offset to the left. The one on the cab was in the center. As Finster said, it would have been direct drive given it's location.
Edit: Actually I take that back about it being direct drive.
In this picture you can see what appears to be a small pulley attached to the crankshaft. That would put the blower further down into the hump. If it were directly attached, it appears that it wouldn't fit in the hump as it is pictured.
You can also see cuts where the apron meets the body, so they must have had the apron setup to be removable, which would make sense.
In this picture you can see that it sits lower than what would be the crank centerline. You can also see the mounting system for the blower. Pretty interesting stuff. Question is, is the blower round or oval shape?
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I also think, it´s probably not a direct drive, rather a belt- or eventually a chain-drive-type.
With that kind of drive, with different rotations compared to crank can be "played" for testing.
It´s not clearly visable, but in theory, it´s also possible, there could be a special kind of engine-oilpump with longer shaft and pulley for fan belt or gear wheel. (compare 356 tach drive or a Auto Stick oil pump)
A chain-drive is more exactly, to say 100 % to rpm of engine. Have a look to the bracket for affixing the "blower".
Moving up- or downwards the blower, the tension of belt or chain could be adjusted.
When once the ideal gearing for blower is found, a engine-oil lubricated trans was eventually thought to. |
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peter schepens
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2025 10:56 am Post subject: Re: Ferry Porsche Turbo VW38 Cabriolet |
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| wagen19 wrote: |
| splitjunkie wrote: |
And it is offset to the left. The one on the cab was in the center. As Finster said, it would have been direct drive given it's location.
Edit: Actually I take that back about it being direct drive.
In this picture you can see what appears to be a small pulley attached to the crankshaft. That would put the blower further down into the hump. If it were directly attached, it appears that it wouldn't fit in the hump as it is pictured.
You can also see cuts where the apron meets the body, so they must have had the apron setup to be removable, which would make sense.
In this picture you can see that it sits lower than what would be the crank centerline. You can also see the mounting system for the blower. Pretty interesting stuff. Question is, is the blower round or oval shape?
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I also think, it´s probably not a direct drive, rather a belt- or eventually a chain-drive-type.
With that kind of drive, with different rotations compared to crank can be "played" for testing.
It´s not clearly visable, but in theory, it´s also possible, there could be a special kind of engine-oilpump with longer shaft and pulley for fan belt or gear wheel. (compare 356 tach drive or a Auto Stick oil pump)
A chain-drive is more exactly, to say 100 % to rpm of engine. Have a look to the bracket for affixing the "blower".
Moving up- or downwards the blower, the tension of belt or chain could be adjusted.
When once the ideal gearing for blower is found, a engine-oil lubricated trans was eventually thought to. |
The engine had a twin pulley.. double belt driven generator. In the text below the pict it states it was a roots type blower. That give an 8 shaped body.. one axle could be direct driven from Crank. I do not think they would do it on the oil pump. To seal that one .. it would be difficult.
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Jacks
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2025 12:32 am Post subject: Re: Ferry Porsche Turbo VW38 Cabriolet |
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I’m going to guess that dual pulleys/belts were used so that if a fan belt failed, the car could still be driven without having to disconnect the supercharger drive from the lower pulleys on the side of the road
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wagen19
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| Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2025 10:43 pm Post subject: Re: Ferry Porsche Turbo VW38 Cabriolet |
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| Jacks wrote: |
| I’m going to guess that dual pulleys/belts were used so that if a fan belt failed, the car could still be driven without having to disconnect the supercharger drive from the lower pulleys on the side of the road |
That can be a good reason. The quality of fan belts that time was very bad till around 1950. Compare your idea with schwimmwagen. What when the fan belt made problems while using the car in water?
Theoretical idea drive from oil pump:
Sealing it, seems similar to crankshaft. Just beside pressured oil inside the bearings near fly wheel and pulley. Also thinking about 356 tach drive. Not really a problem sealing it. (imo)
(also thinking in direction of the later carrera engines...)
If they had done that way, it would have been much easier to replace the fan belts, independent the drivetrain to blower. (just an idea) |
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Jacks
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| Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2025 12:07 am Post subject: Re: Ferry Porsche Turbo VW38 Cabriolet |
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Well, the resistance load of a tach drive on a 356 oil pump could not be remotely compared to the loading of a supercharger. It should be noted that the slot on the end of the camshaft and the corresponding tang on the oil pump gear on VW and 356 engines are subject to considerable wear in stock configuration, not to mention the weak fiber camshaft timing gear of the era, whereas crankshaft driven superchargers had been proven long before in many applications
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wagen19
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| Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2025 1:24 am Post subject: Re: Ferry Porsche Turbo VW38 Cabriolet |
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| Jacks wrote: |
| Well, the resistance load of a tach drive on a 356 oil pump could not be remotely compared to the loading of a supercharger. It should be noted that the slot on the end of the camshaft and the corresponding tang on the oil pump gear on VW and 356 engines are subject to considerable wear in stock configuration, not to mention the weak fiber camshaft timing gear of the era, whereas crankshaft driven superchargers had been proven long before in many applications |
You are quite right about max torque of original slot in cam. That could have been possibly improved for better drive. The weak fiber camshaft timing gear came in 1950 or 51 (also for 356).
The KdF timing gears were much more solid, made from steel or aluminium.
OK, the oil pump looks rather stock, as far as visable and it was probably not planned, to built engines with (that kind of) blowers in large numbers.
Also the intake manifold could probably improved. Is it known, whether ths blower was operating continously, or only "on demand"? Some sort of clutch in drive train?
But probably we´l never find out. |
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MDKG
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| Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2025 1:57 am Post subject: Re: Ferry Porsche Turbo VW38 Cabriolet |
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A bit more on Ferry's Convertible in this thread https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...;start=180
Unfortunately a lot of dead picture links but also some pictures that apear in this thread and some interesting information. |
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sleepywiesel
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| Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2025 9:03 am Post subject: Re: Ferry Porsche Turbo VW38 Cabriolet |
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I quite like the idea with the two pulleys of the Schwimmwagen.
They used the exhaust system from a Kubelwagen obviously.
So maybe the coupling between the crankshaft and the blower is a Schwimmwagen part.
Does anyone have a picture of the Schwimmwagen mechanism from inside the engine bay?
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finster
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| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2025 1:50 am Post subject: Re: Ferry Porsche Turbo VW38 Cabriolet |
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the coupling on the schwimmer is a disc that slides on splines to engage with drive pegs on the end of the crankshaft/pulleys. this set-up could easily drive the blower and even enable it to be coupled/uncoupled
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wagen19
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| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2025 2:11 am Post subject: Re: Ferry Porsche Turbo VW38 Cabriolet |
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Thanks finster for your great pics.
I think, the distance between the end of crank pulley and blower is rather short.
The blower must be mechanical fixed with somehow brackets.
Are there pics of a that time common coupling system for roots-blowers of other cars?
What about cooling the blower? |
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sleepywiesel
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| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2025 8:21 am Post subject: Re: Ferry Porsche Turbo VW38 Cabriolet |
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I think that's it:
Porsche Type 170 or 171. Both were developed for a "Sturmboot" (marine landing craft) in 1942. Both types were supercharged. One type had the blower where the generator was supposed to be, the other one right behind the crankshaft pulley. And I'm pretty sure that I can see the schwimmwagen coupling.
There is another picture of the variant with the blower on top of the engine. You can see someting like "VD" on it. Maybe the manufacturer?
Here is one picture from the Porsche website:
The link to the Porsche website:
https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/2020/history/porsche-klassik-367-gmuend-models-19637.html
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finster
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| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2025 9:17 am Post subject: Re: Ferry Porsche Turbo VW38 Cabriolet |
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great photo sleepywiesel and it does look like a schwimmer set-up.
the top mounted belt-drive version used a victor derbuel or VD roots type blower (according to ludvigsen) driven at more than twice the crankshaft speed bringing the power output to 34bhp @ 3,300rpm.
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sleepywiesel
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| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2025 11:43 am Post subject: Re: Ferry Porsche Turbo VW38 Cabriolet |
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Great, thanks for the information finster.
I have found an intersting picture of one of theese blowers.
It almost looks like the one we are looking for. But it doesn't seem to be kdf body.
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wagen19
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| Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2025 2:05 am Post subject: Re: Ferry Porsche Turbo VW38 Cabriolet |
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| sleepywiesel wrote: |
Great, thanks for the information finster.
I have found an intersting picture of one of theese blowers.
It almost looks like the one we are looking for. But it doesn't seem to be kdf body.
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There were many interesting types and parts, as well as combinations that time around.
We should also have a look and think about the type 120 industrial engine.
Here I have a original "Bedienungsanweisung und Instandsetzungsanleitung für Stationär-Motor-KdF. Typ 120" from July 1943.
That engine also has a twin belt pulley, nr. 60 102 151, (swimmer pulley with 3 pins for "Gelenkscheibe 70 623 329" is 70 102 151, spare book April 1943)
But I can see, the swimmer pulley, as well as the industrial pulley, both are not hollowed out and made of sheet metal. The pulley on that blower-vert-engine looks clearly hollowed out, but that can may be a older casted version of industrial or swimmer type pulley.
The Magneto of that pictured "Sturmboot-engine" looks the same as for type 120, which was driven by distributer shaft. (housing 60 135 101, complete magneto Bosch Magnetzünder ZEZ 13/1248 FF 4 ALS 388, VW spare nr. 60 920 021)
(The screw for swimmer pulley looks not original. It looks rather like a modified screw since Oct 49, nr. 102 163. Swimmer had a "own" screw 70 102 105, spare book April 43) |
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splitjunkie
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2025 9:33 am Post subject: Re: Ferry Porsche Turbo VW38 Cabriolet |
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| wagen19 wrote: |
| sleepywiesel wrote: |
Great, thanks for the information finster.
I have found an intersting picture of one of theese blowers.
It almost looks like the one we are looking for. But it doesn't seem to be kdf body.
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There were many interesting types and parts, as well as combinations that time around.
We should also have a look and think about the type 120 industrial engine.
Here I have a original "Bedienungsanweisung und Instandsetzungsanleitung für Stationär-Motor-KdF. Typ 120" from July 1943.
That engine also has a twin belt pulley, nr. 60 102 151, (swimmer pulley with 3 pins for "Gelenkscheibe 70 623 329" is 70 102 151, spare book April 1943)
But I can see, the swimmer pulley, as well as the industrial pulley, both are not hollowed out and made of sheet metal. The pulley on that blower-vert-engine looks clearly hollowed out, but that can may be a older casted version of industrial or swimmer type pulley.
The Magneto of that pictured "Sturmboot-engine" looks the same as for type 120, which was driven by distributer shaft. (housing 60 135 101, complete magneto Bosch Magnetzünder ZEZ 13/1248 FF 4 ALS 388, VW spare nr. 60 920 021)
(The screw for swimmer pulley looks not original. It looks rather like a modified screw since Oct 49, nr. 102 163. Swimmer had a "own" screw 70 102 105, spare book April 43) |
That looks like the same type of blower. You can see the blower on the vert from the bottom in this picture.
Like Finster, I had initially thought it was direct drive but based on this picture it just doesn't look like the blower would fit under the bump out on the apron, but that could be just the angle of the shot.
What I find interesting about this new picture is that it appears that it might be in the vert with the apron removed. You can see what looks to be the side of the left lower quarter panel, just to the left of the blower. The angle looks correct and you can see at least one fender weld nut and in the upper left corner you can see what looks like the edge of the fender. The shade appears the same as the vert too.
As you can see in this picture, there is a cut where the apron meets the quarter panel so the apron was removable.
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obieoberstar
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2025 8:23 pm Post subject: Re: Ferry Porsche Turbo VW38 Cabriolet |
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in the picture showing the supercharger from above I have a few comments.
It looks like that the fender beading is laid over the fender.
And you can see what I think is the black bumper bracket. Is that a broom handle used to spread the apron? It does not look like the exhaust as shown in the picture from below. |
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finster
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2025 4:52 am Post subject: Re: Ferry Porsche Turbo VW38 Cabriolet |
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I don't think the photo of the VD blower is showing a kdf wagen application. the bumper bracket is in the wrong place. the Derbuel blowers were used in all sorts of vehicles from dkw bikes to fiat topolinos.
this one has a dog drive coupling on the end
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[email protected]
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| Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2025 11:04 am Post subject: Re: Ferry Porsche Turbo VW38 Cabriolet |
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Found this ..is this the same car or maybe a second car .
Rear appon and deck lid look different...and look at the rear window this one is split and ferrys is oval...
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Two Glove Boxes
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