Need help identifying my engine

[tkortebein]

Hello, I’ve been stumped by my engine. I can’t make sense of the case number against any engine code tables in my manual, Idiot’s guide, or online. It’s a dual port engine and has no recorded history with my bus, so it could be from anywhere. I think it’s a 1600.
Can anyone here make sense of this engine number?
Appears to just read “16773”

Here are some other clues, which may or may not be helpful…

Any insight is greatly appreciated!

[tasb]

The engine number on the generator pedestal is a restamp by a rebuilder. The displacement is a 1600cc as a minimum but disassembly is the only way to confirm displacement.
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1957 Kombi low mileage 36 hp governor equipped M 178 Slow Drag Winner 2014, 2015, 2018

1965 hardtop Deluxe Microbus owned since 1990 M 620 factory 12 v 1500cc

1961 (October)Single Cab- Road Trip Workhorse

Member# 2059

[Eric&Barb]

Sometime when you have the engine out and tore down to long block, take off one head to measure stroke and bore of the cylinder.

Do check your pulley diameter, hard to tell for sure with an image but it looks on the smaller size. You are much better off with the later 7" diameter dog house pulley.

Are you running dog house fan shroud/cooler system? Be good to get images up front of the shroud, especially left side. Might be missing tins and seals as so happens to often with "I just bought a VW!".

Block off that hole in the left side of the engine compartment. Not with tape that can come loose and get sucked into the fan shroud. Sheet metal, even a larger tin can from tomatoes would work. A piece of sheet metal over and under the hole and use some bolts, washers and nuts to sandwich the sheet metal into place.

Do get following the missing parts soon:

1. Lower hose clamps on the fresh air tubes from fan shroud to the heater boxers. Having those hoses pop off will make the engine run MUCH HOTTER and shorten the longevity of it.

2. Sealing tins around the front of the pre-heat pipes on the intake manifold. Any hole that leads down to the road under the bus means you are sucking the hot air that already has cooled the engine. Heat is the big killer to these old air cooled engines, especially in the summer weather, so it does not help to be sucking hot air back into the engine compartment.

3. Clamping nut and bolt on the air cleaner tube on the carb.

4. Looks like you are missing the metal fuel line from front engine tin (Front is front as in closer to the front bumper) to the fuel pump. Also needs to be a hard rubber grommet in the front engine tin to keep the metal line from getting sawn thru by the sheet metal hole edge.
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[BarryL]

I'm going to make a wild guess.

When VW started making dual relief cases the dealer could buy one. That is the 16773 number. Also a dealer could buy a long block assembled. That is the K number. In my opinion those are VW stamps.

[mdege]

The K number is the original number to the case.

The case is a type3 case. The type3 has its number on top instead of the usual place, because you would not be able to see it in a type3.
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1965 21F: Restoration of a former '65 firetruck
1963 Typ3 Notchback project
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[EverettB]

^^^ Agree on the Type 3 location but that's not a valid Type 3 engine number.

Also the stamping is further toward the front of the vehicle on a Type 3 case - It's across from the oil cooler input/output holes
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[tkortebein]

Thanks all for the insight.
Well, in any case at least my suspicions are confirmed that it's a 1600 of some sort. I agree that the number looks like a Type 3 location, but it doesn't align with any engine code list I can find...

I took some more photos of the engine for those interested, and to verify some of Eric&Barb's concerns. I definitely need to address the missing tin around the pre heater tubes and the clamps on the fresh air hoses.

The metal fuel line to the pump does exist, though it's joined to the pump with a short section of hose. It's wrapped in a section of rubber hose where it passes through the tin as well. Not sure if this will hold up as well as a proper grommet, but at least the PO took some care. Is this standard procedure, or should it be changed? The body seal has seen better days and has been added to the list for replacement next time the engine is out.

Here are some photos around the back of the shroud. It's a doghouse cooler, and nothing jumps out at me as missing, but it's my first time spelunking.

I measured the pulleys. The crank pulley is 7in diameter and the generator pulley is about 4-1/4in. Does that seem right? I figure running a larger generator pulley would make the fan spin slower...

[tasb]

If the front tin hasn’t cut into the rubber yet you should be ok. It’s a common work around. Your dog house assembly looks good it even has the often missing seal at its base. There is supposed to be a spring that runs from the fan shroud to the flaps rod that runs across between the two sets of flaps. It’s a fail safe to open the flaps should the thermostat fail.
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Roads Scholar
1957 Kombi low mileage 36 hp governor equipped M 178 Slow Drag Winner 2014, 2015, 2018

1965 hardtop Deluxe Microbus owned since 1990 M 620 factory 12 v 1500cc

1961 (October)Single Cab- Road Trip Workhorse

Member# 2059

[Eric&Barb]

When you pull the engine it would be a good time to get a grommet around the fuel line in the front tin. Till then give the metal fuel line a jiggle up and down and listen for any tale tell metal to metal tap tap tap..... Start a list of time to buy parts and add the grommet and split axle boot from a decent VW parts supplier like Wolfsburg West. With the engine out it a good time to install a fuel reserve tap for reserve fuel and shutting off fuel flow like when you want to pull the engine or replace the flex fuel lines without having fuel pouring out all over.

You can upgrade to the 356 and 911 Porsche gen/alt pulley for an increase of cooling fan RPMs, but if you like to really rev the heck out of the engine a lot there is a chance one can blow up the cooling fan. To prevent that there are fans that have been TIG welded up for sale in the classifieds. There are three sizes of DH cooling fans, 33mm, 34mm, & 35mm (as measured between the two discs that make up the front and rear of the fan), of course the biggest width is the best for the bus. Personally we keep to 3,00 RPM for cruising and only go above that for short burst to keep from going too low when up shifting.

Looks like you are missing the foam seal between the DH exhaust shell and the fan shroud. Probably missing similar foam seal over the DH oil cooler to seal the air so it goes thru and not around the cooler. You can get foam seal tape as used on home doors and windows at your local hardware store for that.

Think you are missing the rubber seals where the DH exhaust tube passes thru the front tin. Need the seals there to keep the hot air from the cooler from getting sucked back into the engine compartment AND to keep the tin pieces from cutting up each other.

GREAT that you have the thermostatic flaps all in place. Do you have the thermostat in place??

NEED IMAGES of underside of the engine. One showing the thermostat area. Second of the oil pump area, and third of the other side of the enginecase along the #3 & #4 cylinder heat exchanger.

Right now it looks like you are missing the lower rear cylinder tin pieces.
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[Eric&Barb]

Oh, good time to get a new engine lid seal. Get one of the better quality ones that do not come as four chunks of hard plastic junk.
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[Clara]

spring for thermostat linkage:

also could use foam under doghouse cover edge:

thermostat just visible at lower edge of pic, the copper colored item above the black tin at bottom edge.

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[tkortebein]

Some more pics of the engine, from below this time.
It looks to me like the thermostat itself is not installed. Is that a bad thing? I've read somewhere that it's not worth the liability to warm up the engine a little faster...
Since it's not in place, is it critical that I install a spring on the flap linkage as Clara pointed out? Could they fail closed, or will they stay permanently opened without a thermostat or spring?

It sure looks like I'm missing the lower rear tin pieces that exist in Clara's photos...

Oil pump area:

Left side along heater box:

[Clara]

If you put all the tin in place the engine cools better.
Would you leave parts out of your brake system on purpose?

If it is cooler than 140F where you live, you should have the thermostat.

I always run thermostats. Once I had a failure, it failed open. It was an original German thermostat.

Yes you need the spring if you have the thermostat flaps.
Actually, if you have the flaps, but no thermostat, wire the flaps open.

this is the set of tin for the above motor

most pieces there are several versions of. With the bent breather pipe you need the tin that fits around it.,
some tin pieces are easy to install with motor in place, some not so much. if the thermostat vertical rod is missing you have to pull the fan shroud to install it. If it is there, you can install a thermostat easily with motor in place.

sometimes I'd take the motor out, replace the oil cooler and main seal, and install any missing tin

anyhow, pretty normal to have a replacement motor, not the original. Generally it's a 1600.
You need to buy tune up parts for the distributor you have, not assume it is original to the model and year VW it's on.
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[Eric&Barb]

That is a nice German VW heater box. Get the tin repaired ASAP on the rear side of that to keep out exhaust fumes, and get maximum heat. Might see if a muffler repair shop will fix that for you.
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[tkortebein]

Some updates! I’ve been able to remedy a few of the issues raised by you fine folks.

I installed the lower rear cylinder deflector tins:

I was only able to get one screw in this side, since the second is obscured until the engine comes out.

Plugged all holes in the engine bay “floor” that might let hot air back into circulation, including the unused preheat hole in the breastplate, the hacked holes to the left of the engine (this repair will stand until I am ready to do some actual sheet metal work), and the heat riser tube tins with new felt seals (not pictured).

I also wired the thermostat flaps open for now, as I haven’t found the correct spring. I will likely try to get the thermostat system functioning properly the next time the engine is out. I have new engine-to-body seals on hand for that procedure as well.

Thank you all for the pointers! I took a 250 mile trip to the desert last weekend, and she seems to be running cool. The dipstick was never so hot that I could not hold it in my bare hand after long climbs, and the few times I stuck the turkey thermometer in the dipstick tube, the oil was right around 220F. Is that too cold?

Thanks again for all the insight. I am really enjoying trips in this bus!

[Eric&Barb]

Thermostat opens about 160F, so that according to the folks that designed the engine is as cool as you really want the engine on drives. IOHO 220F is as high as we will run, most others will accept 230F. Personally we have over 150,000 miles since last rebuilt on our 1641 SP engine with thin wall cylinders that most will say will not work long in a bug let alone a RGB bus.

You should buy or borrow a tack to wire in temporary and take a passenger along for at least a 15 minute drive to write down your RPM at which MPH in each gear. Personally prefer 3,000 RPM for top of each forward gear and 1,500 RPM for lowest of 2-4th gears. Only going much above 3,000 RPM for only short burst, like when climbing a steep hill to keep from dropping down below 1,500 RPM.
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[Eric&Barb]

If you remove the rear engine tin, you can fully install the right lower rear cylinder tin. No need to drop the engine. Does not hurt to put a 6mm bolt into that place to secure that tin better.
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[Clara]

[BonTonRoulet]

I've yet to find an air temperature dependent thermostat hooked to moving "vanes" within the cooling fan shroud of my Porsche 911SC. For that matter, I've never seen such device on any air cooled factory 911 engine. Perhaps Hans Mezger was asleep at the wheel when it came to such detrimental design?
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[Eric&Barb]