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wagen19
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Joined: November 16, 2007
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Location: germany
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 Posted: Thu May 22, 2025 10:13 pm Post subject: Re: Military 1952 Standard |
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[quote="sinclair"]
| wagen19 wrote: |
L344 Reed green is the translation.
Yes I've seen a few descriptions of the military green on birth certificates, but none correct. They seem to pick the closest sounding. Middle green being closest to the Medium Bronze Green used on the BAoR cars. This is very different. |
What makes you sure, the given info, L 13 middle or medium green for some 1952 cars for British Military is allways wrong?
Imo it´s possible, ther was more than only one green tone for british cars between 1945 and 1952 or later on.
Thinking pre mid 49, there was most probably some kind of mixing of paint.
Also I´m thinking about repainting and paintjob repairs, while these cars were in military service. (remembering german Bundeswehr cars and bikes, they often had many lacquer layers of similar nato olive on top of each other.
What about paint code on birth certicicate of your 52?
We need more input about L 11, L 12, L 13. L 14, L 15, L16, L 17, L 18, L 19 pics, relation on which types or vehicles these paints were used.
The British Military repairshops must have had info about, what kind of paint and color, paint code were around. But I doubt, it was that important that times. Main thing, the cars ran! |
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virtanen
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the dominator
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| Posted: Fri May 23, 2025 1:51 am Post subject: Re: Military 1952 Standard |
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| virtanen wrote: |
| Our March 1952 car the birth certificate says "army green". |
Same applies for my Oct 52 11E
_________________
52 Zwitter standard ragtop, parts hunting
67 T2A candywaxred en chestnutbrown
1988 T3 doka synco 2.1WBX |
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sinclair
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Location: New Forest UK
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| Posted: Fri May 23, 2025 2:10 am Post subject: Re: Military 1952 Standard |
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You are right wagen19, I am making assumptions. And the military did tend to regular repaint. My 54 has two green layers and the 52 has four!
I think we can be pretty sure that the 52-53 "Military" or "army green" specified on the birth certs is the Bronze Green used on British army at the time, based on what owners are having to match to their cars when repainting parts.
I'm sceptical about taking the Birth cert as definitive. They frequently contain errors in interpreting codes (paint, trim and options) though dates and locations are probably accurate.
Pre 50 I think more likely to have been an olive of some sort but couldn't comment. They are so few.
Here are a few certificate desctiptions that I have seen for military beetles.
11E- June 52- 151 company -L13 Middle green.
11E- Sept 52- 151 company- Military green.
11E- Oct 52- 17VB- Military Green.
11A- Jan 53- British HQ- Military green.
11E- Aug 53- CCG- L13 Medium Green.
115- Feb 54- CCG- L312 Palm Green.
111- Dec 54- CCG- Not Deposdeted.
111-May 78- GFAF. RAL 6014 |
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the dominator
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| Posted: Wed May 28, 2025 6:14 am Post subject: Re: Military 1952 Standard |
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| sinclair wrote: |
You are right wagen19, I am making assumptions. And the military did tend to regular repaint. My 54 has two green layers and the 52 has four!
I think we can be pretty sure that the 52-53 "Military" or "army green" specified on the birth certs is the Bronze Green used on British army at the time, based on what owners are having to match to their cars when repainting parts.
I'm sceptical about taking the Birth cert as definitive. They frequently contain errors in interpreting codes (paint, trim and options) though dates and locations are probably accurate.
Pre 50 I think more likely to have been an olive of some sort but couldn't comment. They are so few.
Here are a few certificate desctiptions that I have seen for military beetles.
11E- June 52- 151 company -L13 Middle green.
11E- Sept 52- 151 company- Military green.
11E- Oct 52- 17VB- Military Green.
11A- Jan 53- British HQ- Military green.
11E- Aug 53- CCG- L13 Medium Green.
115- Feb 54- CCG- L312 Palm Green.
111- Dec 54- CCG- Not Deposdeted.
111-May 78- GFAF. RAL 6014 |
I found somewhere, but not sure where it was, that the colour used for our military zwitters (11E) would be the same as Land Rover deep bronze Green LRC001.
Can anyone confirm this?
_________________
52 Zwitter standard ragtop, parts hunting
67 T2A candywaxred en chestnutbrown
1988 T3 doka synco 2.1WBX |
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sinclair
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| Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2025 3:32 am Post subject: Re: Military 1952 Standard |
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| yes that's correct |
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Martin Southwell
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| Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2025 2:29 pm Post subject: Re: Military 1952 Standard |
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| X2, in the main, but there are exceptions. |
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the dominator
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Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2025 10:45 pm Post subject: Re: Military 1952 Standard |
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| sinclair wrote: |
| yes that's correct |
| Martin Southwell wrote: |
| X2, in the main, but there are exceptions. |
I guess for me, when looking at the painttest we have done on original B column, it is the right colour.
The high gloss example is LRC001 , we will top it off with some less glossy clear varnish 
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52 Zwitter standard ragtop, parts hunting
67 T2A candywaxred en chestnutbrown
1988 T3 doka synco 2.1WBX |
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wagen19
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Joined: November 16, 2007
Posts: 651
Location: germany
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| Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2025 2:50 am Post subject: Re: Military 1952 Standard |
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| the dominator wrote: |
| sinclair wrote: |
| yes that's correct |
| Martin Southwell wrote: |
| X2, in the main, but there are exceptions. |
I guess for me, when looking at the painttest we have done on original B column, it is the right colour.
The high gloss example is LRC001 , we will top it off with some less glossy clear varnish
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For me, up to now it´s rather clear, the military cars we are talking about here were manufactured and painted at WOB, or am I wrong?
Cans of paint were available and listed in VW spare books.
Where is the evidence, that VW has ever used paint from GB or the tone LRC001 from a common pait supplier for VW that times?
If LRC001 is possibly correct, what I do not deny, there `must be´a aequivalenl L xx paint code for that tone, imo.
Some posts ago, I´ve listed the eary 2-digit green tones L 11 to L 19. I believe, the military tones must be among these colors.
But who knows better and can show any form of evidence?
As we know meanwhile, the original military paint coming from WOB was more shiny than expected, it seems to be possible, the cars have been repainted outside, very soon after they had left the factory. |
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wagen19
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| Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2025 4:33 am Post subject: Re: Military 1952 Standard |
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| wagen19 wrote: |
| the dominator wrote: |
| sinclair wrote: |
| yes that's correct |
| Martin Southwell wrote: |
| X2, in the main, but there are exceptions. |
I guess for me, when looking at the painttest we have done on original B column, it is the right colour.
The high gloss example is LRC001 , we will top it off with some less glossy clear varnish
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For me, up to now it´s rather clear, the military cars we are talking about here were manufactured and painted at WOB, or am I wrong?
Cans of paint were available and listed in VW spare books.
Where is the evidence, that VW has ever used paint from GB or the tone LRC001 from a common pait supplier for VW that times?
If LRC001 is possibly correct, what I do not deny, there `must be´a aequivalenl L xx paint code for that tone, imo.
Some posts ago, I´ve listed the eary 2-digit green tones L 11 to L 19. I believe, the military tones must be among these colors.
But who knows better and can show any form of evidence?
As we know meanwhile, the original military paint coming from WOB was more shiny than expected, it seems to be possible, the cars have been repainted outside, very soon after they had left the factory. |
To add:
we also can think about the green tones for Hebmuller, Karmann and Papler Police cars. What green tones are known here?
Can some of them be the same, used twice or several times?
In Germany we should rather think about RAL paint tone system.
For ex "tannengruen RAL 6009"
https://craftmasterpaints.de/c/coach-enamel/ral-farben/ral-6000-gruentoene
https://www.bilder-plus.de/ral-6000.php |
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sinclair
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| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2025 3:02 pm Post subject: Re: Military 1952 Standard |
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This from a German friend with a BAoR car
"15 years ago, I went to the VW museum myself. There I was told that the paint was imported directly from England. Also VW probably doesn't really know what was original." |
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finster
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| Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2025 9:07 am Post subject: Re: Military 1952 Standard |
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from an old thread on f'book 'early post war volkswagen beetle' group about 'service green' paint that I stumbled upon whilst looking for something else. marc rakete says this rim is nos and matches grauoliv ral 6006.
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nothing lasts, nothing is finished, and nothing is perfect... |
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sinclair
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| Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2025 11:18 am Post subject: Re: Military 1952 Standard |
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| finster wrote: |
from an old thread on f'book 'early post war volkswagen beetle' group about 'service green' paint that I stumbled upon whilst looking for something else. marc rakete says this rim is nos and matches grauoliv ral 6006.
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That’s interesting. Thanks for that. I tried the same thing:D
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wagen19
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| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2025 12:23 am Post subject: Re: Military 1952 Standard |
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Thanks for the lists, but Imo, we should better start with the question, "where has the paint come from, that was filled in the "paint guns" at WOB, for that military cars".
What kind of paint is it? Nitro or synthetic resin varnish? Was there a large pot, in which many different green paints has been filled in and mixed?
Assuming, sometimes green paint for all VW models was left over and that paint was filled in the large pot and was "tuned" with black paint to match as good as possible.
("Military paint" as a kind of recycled paint?)
Is it possible, that "Mr Fillpot" from GB visited WOB sometimes and had filled the pot?
Was the target, "mainthing", GREEN ENOUGH; some sort of green, similar to "military green"?
Imo, the tone of paint for that cars had not to be that exact and reproducible, that times.
It´s a matter of fact, up to now, we have and see many different original tones and colors, but still have no clear paint codes, neither from factory, nor from British Military Workshops.
Imo, for now, all info on hand we have, points to that direction of supporting the "Military-Fill-Pot-Theory". So probably there never was a paint code or a holy grail here. But who has facts and knows better? |
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finster
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| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2025 2:47 am Post subject: Re: Military 1952 Standard |
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yes, I agree. it was difficult enough to gather the parts and raw materials to make a car let alone fuss about the paint being mixed to a specific shade. so it would rely on what they could get hold of. a bit like the renault 4cv using stocks of german dunkelgelb in 46 earning it the name of 'butter pat'.
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wagen19
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| Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2025 12:35 am Post subject: Re: Military 1952 Standard |
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| finster wrote: |
| yes, I agree. it was difficult enough to gather the parts and raw materials to make a car let alone fuss about the paint being mixed to a specific shade. so it would rely on what they could get hold of. a bit like the renault 4cv using stocks of german dunkelgelb in 46 earning it the name of 'butter pat'. |
Idea:
There was a large "Military Fill Pot", but not allways
(> EDIT: "but not allways used, at least not for all military cars")
In mid 49, there was the switch from NITRO to SYNTHETIC RESIN Paint.
>> lots of Nitro paint in different colors was left over >> was filled in the large pot, mixed and "tuned" to look "military greenish" enough.
When the old "Military Nitro Fill Pot" had dried out, fresh but more expensive "pure normal green paint" in synthetic resin with paint codes as L 13 middle green or later L 312 palm green was used.
Maybe, out of economical reasons, there was later a new "Military Synthetic Resin Fill Pot" again.
I do not know, but can imagine, sometimes, there was some, if not plenty of paint left over and in Germany and GB around, cheap to get. That was probably a economical idea, easily to fill up and mix the "Military Fill Pots". And it´s not said, that paint allways has had a homogene "tone" of color in that large pots.
Next question: since when does the here referred paint codes exist?
Based on Sinclaires earlier post, for the moment, so far, I suggest:
> till around 1951: "Nitro Military Fill Pot Paint"
> around 1951 till mid 52: "Synthetic Resin Fresh Paint" (L 13)
> mid 52 to mid 53: "Synthetic Resin Military Fill Pot Paint"
> from mid 53 onwards: "Synthetic Resin Fresh Paint" only (L 13, L 312)
The targets of quality had changed over the years. It´s allways a question of ideals, possibilities and money.
from Sinclaire:
11E- June 52- 151 company -L13 Middle green.
11E- Sept 52- 151 company- Military green.
11E- Oct 52- 17VB- Military Green.
11A- Jan 53- British HQ- Military green.
11E- Aug 53- CCG- L13 Medium Green.
115- Feb 54- CCG- L312 Palm Green.
111- Dec 54- CCG- Not Deposdeted.
Last edited by wagen19 on Tue Jul 01, 2025 12:35 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Martin Southwell
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wagen19
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| Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2025 10:17 pm Post subject: Re: Military 1952 Standard |
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Thank you Martin.
To add: the idea is, most probably also the military cars, from some time on, could be ordered with individual factory Extras, such as "special paint", (the fresh and pure L - tones), instead of "normal and cheap (Fill Pot) paint. Not all cars had the sun roof. Check the birth certificates for still unknown M-codes and paint code! Maybe some of that cars had been more shiny green, than the others, "Extra Green". |
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