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Glenn 
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 79715
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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 Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2025 3:35 am Post subject: Re: Empi Super Shrouds |
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| Fender38 wrote: |
| 58 Plastic Tub wrote: |
The broad generalizations about "cheap VW people" feel at least 20 years out of date, because there's nothing cheap about a VW. A SBC or Ford is worlds cheaper to buy, fix, and make fast. A 150 hp T1 engine of questionable reliability rings in at over $10K. That's a laughable value equation when a 500 hp crate LS straight from the General is selling for about the same money.
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This is very well said. I've have the very same thought I with regard to many posts I see around here. |
I don't see any SBC distributors sell for $50 like the Chinese 009s.
YES, Hi-Po VW parts are not cheap, but you can but a 2275 long block for $4700.
_________________
Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare
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58 Plastic Tub
Samba Member
Joined: September 03, 2007
Posts: 509
Location: Nowhere, USA
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| Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2025 3:54 am Post subject: Re: Empi Super Shrouds |
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| Glenn wrote: |
| YES, Hi-Po VW parts are not cheap, but you can but a 2275 long block for $4700. |
Not one you want.
| Glenn wrote: |
| I don't see any SBC distributors sell for $50 like the Chinese 009s. |
Chinese SBC Distributor, $68. Took literally 10 seconds of searching.
https://www.amazon.com/Speedmaster-PCE376-1032-06-Compatible-Chevy-Distributor/dp/B0885VJPT3?gQT=1
VW people are not uniquely cheap -- the perception is at least 20 years out of date. China-junk is everywhere, in every corner of every business. People GENERALLY have forgotten how to make a value judgement that strikes an acceptable cost/benefit equilibrium.
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." John Ruskin
Mr. Ruskin said that before 1900. People are people, and they behave like people always have. Solomon said (3000 years ago) that there's nothing new under the sun.
He was right.
_________________
Stan Galat
"A single point in isolation is a reference point. Two points is a line. Three points is a trend. Trends don't lie."
Last edited by 58 Plastic Tub on Fri Aug 08, 2025 5:06 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 79715
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2025 4:03 am Post subject: Re: Empi Super Shrouds |
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| 58 Plastic Tub wrote: |
| Glenn wrote: |
| YES, Hi-Po VW parts are not cheap, but you can but a 2275 long block for $4700. |
Not one you want. |
But I bet those full page color ads in the "rags" sell more than Pat/Roy/Jake sell combined.
_________________
Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare
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58 Plastic Tub
Samba Member
Joined: September 03, 2007
Posts: 509
Location: Nowhere, USA
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| Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2025 4:44 am Post subject: Re: Empi Super Shrouds |
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| Glenn wrote: |
| 58 Plastic Tub wrote: |
| Glenn wrote: |
| YES, Hi-Po VW parts are not cheap, but you can but a 2275 long block for $4700. |
Not one you want. |
But I bet those full page color ads in the "rags" sell more than Pat/Roy/Jake sell combined. |
Magazines aren't a thing anymore, so it's probably not the "rags".
Again, may I please direct you to the GM crate engine program, where a 500 HP LS3 is available, complete from the General, with a warranty, dressed and ready to go for about twice the price of that floor-sweeper 2275 long block.
The perception (left over from the 70s) is that VWs are cheap, but they haven't been for at least 20 years. Further, there is a perception of "VW people" that they are also cheap. The only truly cheap VW guys I've ever met are the ones trolling swap meets, looking for cracked single port heads and hammered single-relief cases they can buy in a cardboard box for $20 and use in the floor sweep 1679 they'll never actually build. They're a distinct minority, but (oddly), they regularly post here in the performance section of this website.
Anybody trying to do anything nicely knows that the sweet-spot on the value curve is in the domestic V8 world, and will lead you invariably to a GM or Ford product.
... and out there in the real world, $10K- $12K is 500 hp: reliable, warranted, and ready to go 200k mi. Those $4700 2275 T1 lumps sell because coming into this world from that one, it's hard to imagine how expensive VWs really are. On this side of the fence, $10K- $12K MIGHT buy a finicky, unreliable, and altogether pedestrian 150 HP turnkey Type 1 ready to (maybe?) go 40k mi. before it needs a top-end rebuild... assuming a guy is a good shopper and watches for a deal. That $10k- $12K 150 HP engine might take up to a year from order to delivery.
Alternatively for that $10k- $12K I can have an LS3 on a pallet in my driveway by Friday, if I get my order in by Wed. afternoon. I can pay with a credit card. I don't need to know the secret handshake.
As for Jake, he's not getting a ton of traffic because: A) he runs everybody off and B) he wants $40k+ for a 200 HP motor. I'm not saying they're not worth it, I'm saying it's a hard argument to make for a guy coming out of the "normal" performance world into this one. It feels like there ought to be a shortcut because "good stuff just cannot be this expensive". It ISN'T in that other world. That's why $4700 2275 long blocks sell.
We all need to get over the stereotypes that are holding back this hobby. You know the ones: VWs should be inexpensive. All EMPI parts are garbage. There's nothing new to learn, no better way to skin a cat. The Germans always knew best. Gene Berg was the fullness of God in flesh, and should never be questioned or contradicted. Ditto the prophet, Bob Hoover.
There's a grain of truth in each point. But taken in aggregate, it leads to nowhere any of us want to go. This hobby is a big tent -- we need to realize that the world didn't stop turning in 1990. The canon did not close when Gene Berg died. It feels like some of us need to get out more.
Trying something new is OK -- it won't hurt.
_________________
Stan Galat
"A single point in isolation is a reference point. Two points is a line. Three points is a trend. Trends don't lie." |
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 79715
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2025 5:58 am Post subject: Re: Empi Super Shrouds |
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So, will EMPI still sell the Non-Super shroud?
I've seen the "quality", or lack there of of their tins.
Yes, i've used, customer supplied, EMPI internal parts and they do measure correctly, but I know they come from the same Chinese factory and sold with other names on them.
Gene sold POTL (Pick Of The Litter) meaning parts were measured and when rejected, sent back and most likely sold by other vendors.
I have a Chinese 82mm crank in my 2180. I purchased it from Art Thraen and he ensured me of it's quality and I am happy with it, so everything doesn't need to be German (is anything these days?).
I'm just skeptical of EMPIs claims, why now and not 10 years ago? Was there a huge new development in fluid dynamics or they're just looking to put out a more expensive product?
I have and will use an EMPI shroud, if supplied by the customer, but given free choice to pick the parts, i'll use an OEM or Concept One shroud.
_________________
Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare
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RickS
Samba Member
Joined: May 05, 2005
Posts: 605
Location: Speonk, NY
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| Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2025 7:12 am Post subject: Re: Empi Super Shrouds |
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| Glenn wrote: |
Gene sold POTL (Pick Of The Litter) meaning parts were measured and when rejected, sent back and most likely sold by other vendors.
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I'm not sure I believe this. There is a well respected member of the Samba that worked for a supplier to GBE. He claims they never returned anything. Color me skeptical. |
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Alstrup
Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007
Posts: 7867
Location: Videbaek Denmark
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| Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2025 8:42 am Post subject: Re: Empi Super Shrouds |
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| RickS wrote: |
| Glenn wrote: |
Gene sold POTL (Pick Of The Litter) meaning parts were measured and when rejected, sent back and most likely sold by other vendors.
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I'm not sure I believe this. There is a well respected member of the Samba that worked for a supplier to GBE. He claims they never returned anything. Color me skeptical. |
Youre not far off. Half of his sales gimmicks were b*ll. He/they - did - do some in depth investigation into the parts they sold to ensure quality. They had something going on with their spring kits. Their HD dual springs were too crisp and wanted to break if they were put on something nippy. Their own cranks were good, so was their rocker arms.
Now, back to the shroud thing. I never really understood the Concept thing. i mean, there are loads of nice usable stock shrouds out there... Unless you can´t find one with a venturi ring. Then it makes some sense.
I was the one who brought up the DTM. Maybe that was wrong. - I also thought they stopped producing the type 1 version. (?) Maybe not.
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58 Plastic Tub
Samba Member
Joined: September 03, 2007
Posts: 509
Location: Nowhere, USA
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| Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2025 9:05 am Post subject: Re: Empi Super Shrouds |
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| RickS wrote: |
| I'm not sure I believe this. There is a well respected member of the Samba that worked for a supplier to GBE. He claims they never returned anything. Color me skeptical. |
HERETIC! THERE'S A HERETIC ON THE LOOSE!!
Rick -- what dangerous and reckless lies are you bringing to us? I implore you to repent of your error and turn from the wickedness of your ways.
For God Almighty -- the God of Herr Doktor, the God of Herbie the Love Bug, the God of das Dieselgate -- did give St. Gene of Orange the magnesium tablets on Mt. Baldy that you and I might know the one true path and walk in it. To doubt is to die in the wilderness, wandering in the error of "other knowledge". For there is but one true path, one narrow road, and only St. Gene of Orange did walk it, leading the way for all of us poor and pitiful pilgrims to follow.
For the parts St. Gene of Orange did give us came not from the hands of mere mortals, but were forged by Viking elves in the volcanic furnaces of Sweden of Scandahoovia and delivered unto the heirs of St. Gene of Orange across the river Styx and into the hand of St. Dee (also of Orange). We are blessed to be allowed to purchase these holy relics, if the muse is upon the heirs and sufficient alms are offered.
We can all of us, every one be assured of their quality because they're expensive (which is how we are able to divine such things). Filthy mammon is a poor exchange for such wonderment, but it is all we poor pilgrims have to offer. It will suffice, as long as we bring our offerings in humility and supplication.
So, I beseech you, please -- if you must spout your heresy, please do it outside the church, where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth.
_________________
Stan Galat
"A single point in isolation is a reference point. Two points is a line. Three points is a trend. Trends don't lie."
Last edited by 58 Plastic Tub on Fri Aug 08, 2025 9:13 am; edited 1 time in total |
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58 Plastic Tub
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Joined: September 03, 2007
Posts: 509
Location: Nowhere, USA
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| Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2025 9:11 am Post subject: Re: Empi Super Shrouds |
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| Alstrup wrote: |
| I was the one who brought up the DTM. Maybe that was wrong. - I also thought they stopped producing the type 1 version. (?) Maybe not. |
https://lnengineering.com/type-4-store/dtm-cooling-systems/vw-type-1-dtm.html
Not.
But it's 100% cool that you didn't know, Torben. A guy really has to be looking for it to find it. Almost nobody ever ran them in the first place (except for this weird kid over here).
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Stan Galat
"A single point in isolation is a reference point. Two points is a line. Three points is a trend. Trends don't lie." |
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Alstrup
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Location: Videbaek Denmark
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geeze
Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2025
Posts: 30
Location: land before time
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| Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2025 9:39 am Post subject: Re: Empi Super Shrouds |
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| Alstrup wrote: |
Now, back to the shroud thing. I never really understood the Concept thing. i mean, there are loads of nice usable stock shrouds out there... Unless you can´t find one with a venturi ring. Then it makes some sense.
I was the one who brought up the DTM. Maybe that was wrong. - I also thought they stopped producing the type 1 version. (?) Maybe not. |
this one always confused me too with the Concept ones unless original shrouds are much harder to find in the US than here in Europe
the main reason I've used aftermarket shrouds is for the better packaging of the 36hp shape when running twin carbs and no heating |
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Dusty1
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Joined: April 16, 2004
Posts: 2163
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| Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2025 9:47 am Post subject: Re: Empi Super Shrouds |
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Cheap parts are an education.
Good parts are for people who have had their education.
I got out of VWs for 20 years.
Cue Zappa, "Joe's Garage" "Outside Now"
"I'm outside now. Boy the world sure looks different."
Cheap- ass tin still doesn't fit. Cheap parts still don't work properly.
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 79715
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2025 10:52 am Post subject: Re: Empi Super Shrouds |
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| geeze wrote: |
| the main reason I've used aftermarket shrouds is for the better packaging of the 36hp shape when running twin carbs and no heating |
IDAs fit with a factory shroud.
_________________
Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare
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geeze
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Joined: July 30, 2025
Posts: 30
Location: land before time
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| Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2025 1:46 pm Post subject: Re: Empi Super Shrouds |
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| Glenn wrote: |
| geeze wrote: |
| the main reason I've used aftermarket shrouds is for the better packaging of the 36hp shape when running twin carbs and no heating |
IDAs fit with a factory shroud.
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oh yeah, i know they do fit, they just then make getting to a whole bunch of stuff a pain 
like you I tend to stick with what i know works and Ive kinda settled on german shroud and thermostat for anything with heating but 36hp shroud running open flaps and industrial tins for any summer toy that does without the exchangers
where to run the oil cooler is a whole separate debate thougb, back with liking the doghouse set up after a bad experience going the dedicated external cooler route which means this new empi one is a definite maybe unless they release a doghouse version |
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 79715
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2025 2:53 pm Post subject: Re: Empi Super Shrouds |
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The only thing that's hard is getting to the #1 and #3 plugs. I cut 1.5" holes on the fender and can easily access the plugs with a socket that has a built in swivel and a locking extension. I use a piece of hose, on the engine of the plug to get then started when reinstalling.
If you want easy access, then drive a Ghia.
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare
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geeze
Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2025
Posts: 30
Location: land before time
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| Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2025 3:02 pm Post subject: Re: Empi Super Shrouds |
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| ghias have so much room it feels like a penthouse, guess thats because they are fancy |
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redhot
Samba Member
Joined: February 05, 2005
Posts: 528
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| Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2025 3:40 pm Post subject: Re: Empi Super Shrouds |
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Is not the fair and only resolve to see if EMPI PLUS may provide their compiled or broader test data, to anchor their advertisement?
If they can back their claim with actual data, a good part of the VW population may be more accesible customers. If they cannot show to any data or other comparative information then there is only the "gloss" remaining...
And in the information world, not providing information, is (almost) as not having it in the first place...
So - who can entice EMPI to come forward in terms of sharing? |
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oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 14885
Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2025 3:50 pm Post subject: Re: Empi Super Shrouds |
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Unlikely to happen for several reasons.
1) testing costs money.
2) results could be underwhelming.
3) leaves them open to lawsuits if the same results are not seen by the customer.
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EVfun
Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2012
Posts: 6208
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2025 3:53 pm Post subject: Re: Empi Super Shrouds |
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| Glenn wrote: |
| The only thing that's hard is getting to the #1 and #3 plugs. I cut 1.5" holes on the fender and can easily access the plugs with a socket that has a built in swivel and a locking extension. I use a piece of hose, on the engine of the plug to get then started when reinstalling. |
Damn Glenn, you are making me like the single port engine even more! 
I don't know, but it seems to me that if I just want to go like stink there are a lot of late model cars I could buy that will do it, and kick most of our Bugs to the loser lane. If I want to go in nostalgic style I'll drive one of these old aircooled wonders -- a utilitarian design good enough to be produced for 65 years!
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
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Rob Combs
Samba Member
Joined: December 30, 2020
Posts: 593
Location: South Bay LA, California
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| Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2025 4:12 pm Post subject: Re: Empi Super Shrouds |
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| Glenn wrote: |
| geeze wrote: |
| the main reason I've used aftermarket shrouds is for the better packaging of the 36hp shape when running twin carbs and no heating |
IDAs fit with a factory shroud.
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Strangely enough, my tiny DCNFs did not clear the OEM shroud on Berg manifolds. Even hammer clearancing didn’t get me there.
That’s how I ended up with Scat shrouds. With no ill side effects. But I run the type w/out heater box outlets so can’t comment on how the heater type cools. |
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