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uberwagen
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Joined: February 11, 2006
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 Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 1:23 pm Post subject: 1950 zwitter...urban myth??? |
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I thought I'd start a new post on this to get some more feedback.
Here is a clip from a recent zwitter post:
neil anderson wrote:
reply there is at least 1. 1950 lhd. zwitter in england owned by tony levy
they were called the 100 spezial from 1950
found it in a book osprey colour classics,classic volkwagens 1996 reprint
and yes that one was black
52HoffmanSplit wrote:
Almost certainly the car was de-panned and this story was made up to explain it.... or the dash was changed. Under close scrutiny the cars claims would fall apart.
Not to mention, the book you have cited is a big "picture" book by a company that makes..... coffee table automotive picture books... not exactly a learned treatise on the origins of the Beetle.. or Beetle anomalies. I can just see the owner providing this story to the photographer and it being printed without care to verify known facts.
Just because its printed in a book doesn't make it true. VW Urban myth gone wild.
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DB
So the question is, are there any pictures of this black 1950 zwitter?
...can anyone say for certain that it is legit, or is it a clever hack with a BS story to back it up?
I myself have seen a magazene article on this car, and will try to dig it up & scan it. |
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johnshenry
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 1:34 pm Post subject: |
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I've seen't it. And it had a split speedo with a trip odometer!!!
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53 0val
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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| johnshenry wrote: |
I've seen't it. And it had a split speedo with a trip odometer!!!
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 You're bad!!!!
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52HoffmanSplit
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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| johnshenry wrote: |
I've seen't it. And it had a split speedo with a trip odometer!!!
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Precisely how I feel about the whole topic..  Urban Myth!!!!!!
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Bruce
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 12:24 am Post subject: |
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This is NOT a myth or a car that was pieced together from a bunch of parts.
There exists a second one of these special production cars, here in Vancouver. This local car is well documented and was featured in the early 90s in hotVW's. At first, the owner assumed it to be a late 52/early 53 body on an earlier pan, but this isn't true. All the numbers provided by VW matched the car.
There is one theory that Heinz wanted to update the look of the car, so he comissioned these cars to be made. Out of respect for old man Porsche, he was invited to view the cars. Porsche didn't like what he saw It deviated too much from his original concept, so VW dropped the idea. Shortly after, Porsche died, then VW went ahead with the upgrades.
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RichOakley
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 4:15 am Post subject: |
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I spoke to Tony Levy about his '1950' UK car back in 1995 (Tony died a few years ago). He was adamant that the body was the car's original.
After his death, the car was donated to a museum (which is about 15 miles from where I live). I should really go there and check out the car!
Dubious claim...
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johnshenry
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 8:29 am Post subject: |
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| Bruce wrote: |
This is NOT a myth or a car that was pieced together from a bunch of parts.
There exists a second one of these special production cars, here in Vancouver. This local car is well documented and was featured in the early 90s in hotVW's. At first, the owner assumed it to be a late 52/early 53 body on an earlier pan, but this isn't true. All the numbers provided by VW matched the car.
............. |
So I guess the clincher would be a body number in the 1950 range for this oval dash car, and documentation from VW that it shipped that way.
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52HoffmanSplit
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 8:42 am Post subject: |
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| Bruce wrote: |
There is one theory |
Whose Theory? This has all the markings of a "made up" story. Im afraid neither of the above "stories" comes with any proof. I resolve to be a skeptic on this subject. If VW had made prototypes.. they would have NEVER sold them to the general public. (it was claimed in the other earlier thread these were called the Spezial models and over 100 were produced)... so show me a Owners Manual dated 1950 with an Oval Dash. I think we all agree VW wouldnt let these cars be sold without proper documentation... it wasn't their way.
Just like it isn't their way to sell prototypes... or.. even experiments of a new dash. I'm not saying the new dash wasn't considered, it might have been a new Idea in 1950... but all laid out and ready to go? nope..
Lastly... in Ferry Porsches 2 Autobiographies he specifically says that his father only visited the Volkswagenwerk on one occasion and this was November 18th 1950. He toured the plant but it does not mention him viewing any prototypes...but this is certainly possible. I would certainly like to know what the VIN numbers are for these 1950's.. because if they were produced prior to Nov 1950.... your "theory" is shot to hell.
Lastly, a car being in HotVw's holds less weight with me than it being in a childrens picture book. They are the BASTION of inaccuracy.. The staff hardly qualify as students of automobile History. Take away Rich Kimball.. and poof.. there goes their Vintage knowledge.
Just my .02
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janerick3
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 8:48 am Post subject: |
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So...Tony never got around to crushing his car into a cube and making a coffee table out of it, like he threatened.
Zwitter-era parts exist that predate the Zwitter era by several months. I once had a 4J x 15 rim dated 3/52 and I have seen at least one other (I believe there is a separate thread on these rims). These rims had their hubcap clips bolted on, not riveted.
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RichOakley
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 11:06 am Post subject: |
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| janerick3 wrote: |
So...Tony never got around to crushing his car into a cube and making a coffee table out of it, like he threatened.
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...Nope, but a lorry nearly did so in the late 1980s. The car was very badly damaged and was almost scrapped at this time.
I personally doubt the story about the car's originality. Tony never had any photos available when I asked him for proof of the car's early history. If I get the chance, I will visit the museum at some point and do some investigating. |
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Brezelwerks
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 11:38 am Post subject: |
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| 52HoffmanSplit wrote: |
| Bruce wrote: |
There is one theory |
Whose Theory? This has all the markings of a "made up" story. Im afraid neither of the above "stories" comes with any proof. I resolve to be a skeptic on this subject. If VW had made prototypes.. they would have NEVER sold them to the general public. (it was claimed in the other earlier thread these were called the Spezial models and over 100 were produced)... so show me a Owners Manual dated 1950 with an Oval Dash. I think we all agree VW wouldnt let these cars be sold without proper documentation... it wasn't their way.
Just like it isn't their way to sell prototypes... or.. even experiments of a new dash. I'm not saying the new dash wasn't considered, it might have been a new Idea in 1950... but all laid out and ready to go? nope..
Lastly... in Ferry Porsches 2 Autobiographies he specifically says that his father only visited the Volkswagenwerk on one occasion and this was November 18th 1950. He toured the plant but it does not mention him viewing any prototypes...but this is certainly possible. I would certainly like to know what the VIN numbers are for these 1950's.. because if they were produced prior to Nov 1950.... your "theory" is shot to hell.
Lastly, a car being in HotVw's holds less weight with me than it being in a childrens picture book. They are the BASTION of inaccuracy.. The staff hardly qualify as students of automobile History. Take away Rich Kimball.. and poof.. there goes their Vintage knowledge.
Just my .02 |
Fascinating subject. Seems every new generation of vintage enthusiasts are left to trying to sort out all these legendary and mythical stories. Whether or not it will be ever fully resolved is another question though.
I tend to agree first with the points above. The German factory culture would of been highly reluctant to release one or even a few "specials" (at least directly) into the retail market.
Knowing German design culture well from past careers though, the typical design process, innovations and new technologies are lengthy processes. It would be no surprise in the least if the Zwitter type features were well into prototyping at the very beginning of 1950, if not even late 49 as VW was trying to freshen up the 10+ year old design, by first introducing the deluxe as a cosmetic upgrade in attempt to grow market share. Its actually a miracle that a basically same 10 year old car design actually made it past this single time point. As much as I nostalgically appreciate much better the look and feel of the split window and its nostalgic iconic deco period dash and rear windows today, I have to realistically acknowledge that this look was way overdated at the time.
Prototype and concept cars are actually carefully documented, since at some point the business mucky mucks need to strategically decide via line by line item the costs and features would be chosen for each new model year, or even mid year and then some along the way, as factors made sense during production. So someone telling me documents exist about one of these cars makes sense, just not likely production release documentation.
The lagging mystery is what would of logically and rationally happened to these prototype Zwitters? There were probably a few tight and trusted dealer relationships that likely existed then, its entirely possible that one if not more of the prototypes might have been (what we might call today "Beta testing" at a customer locale) put there for customer and tech feedback, or even made for a car trade show. So indirectly a few might have escaped this way. Over time forgotten about eventually, stored away, bought/kept by the dealer owner. All kinds of circumstances are possible.
My my gut feel tells me one or a few Zwitters were pieced together in 1950. Probably one or a couple escaped and were circled amongst friends, and over time the legend grows. This is one I think will just remain an undocumented reality.
Gary |
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RareAir
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Bruce wrote: |
This is NOT a myth or a car that was pieced together from a bunch of parts.
There exists a second one of these special production cars, here in Vancouver. This local car is well documented and was featured in the early 90s in hotVW's. At first, the owner assumed it to be a late 52/early 53 body on an earlier pan, but this isn't true. All the numbers provided by VW matched the car.
There is one theory that Heinz wanted to update the look of the car, so he comissioned these cars to be made. Out of respect for old man Porsche, he was invited to view the cars. Porsche didn't like what he saw It deviated too much from his original concept, so VW dropped the idea. Shortly after, Porsche died, then VW went ahead with the upgrades. |
For those interested, it's the August 1988 issue of Hot VWs. Car was owned by Dana Craighead (Vancouver, Canada) According to the article, here's a few specs on the car:
Body number- 354310- Oct 1952
(under serial number)
Frame number- 432520- Oct 1952
(on Left front brake hose bracket)
VIN- 225891- January 1951
(on pan under the rear seat & on the front tag)
Engine number- 272538- January 1951
(on engine block) |
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johnshenry
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Location: Northwood, NH USA
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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| RareAir wrote: |
| Bruce wrote: |
This is NOT a myth or a car that was pieced together from a bunch of parts.
There exists a second one of these special production cars, here in Vancouver. This local car is well documented and was featured in the early 90s in hotVW's. At first, the owner assumed it to be a late 52/early 53 body on an earlier pan, but this isn't true. All the numbers provided by VW matched the car.
There is one theory that Heinz wanted to update the look of the car, so he comissioned these cars to be made. Out of respect for old man Porsche, he was invited to view the cars. Porsche didn't like what he saw It deviated too much from his original concept, so VW dropped the idea. Shortly after, Porsche died, then VW went ahead with the upgrades. |
For those interested, it's the August 1988 issue of Hot VWs. Car was owned by Dana Craighead (Vancouver, Canada) According to the article, here's a few specs on the car:
Body number- 354310- Oct 1952
(under serial number)
Frame number- 432520- Oct 1952
(on Left front brake hose bracket)
VIN- 225891- January 1951
(on pan under the rear seat & on the front tag)
Engine number- 272538- January 1951
(on engine block) |
OK, well that slams the door shut on that theory then, doesn't it? An early Zwitter body on an early '51 chassis.
Ok.. SO what else can we talk about?
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53 0val
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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Anybody hear about the 1945 82E, full of Nazi gold, hidden in Loch Ness?
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splitjunkie
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Joined: April 04, 2006
Posts: 4228
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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| johnshenry wrote: |
| RareAir wrote: |
| Bruce wrote: |
This is NOT a myth or a car that was pieced together from a bunch of parts.
There exists a second one of these special production cars, here in Vancouver. This local car is well documented and was featured in the early 90s in hotVW's. At first, the owner assumed it to be a late 52/early 53 body on an earlier pan, but this isn't true. All the numbers provided by VW matched the car.
There is one theory that Heinz wanted to update the look of the car, so he comissioned these cars to be made. Out of respect for old man Porsche, he was invited to view the cars. Porsche didn't like what he saw It deviated too much from his original concept, so VW dropped the idea. Shortly after, Porsche died, then VW went ahead with the upgrades. |
For those interested, it's the August 1988 issue of Hot VWs. Car was owned by Dana Craighead (Vancouver, Canada) According to the article, here's a few specs on the car:
Body number- 354310- Oct 1952
(under serial number)
Frame number- 432520- Oct 1952
(on Left front brake hose bracket)
VIN- 225891- January 1951
(on pan under the rear seat & on the front tag)
Engine number- 272538- January 1951
(on engine block) |
OK, well that slams the door shut on that theory then, doesn't it? An early Zwitter body on an early '51 chassis.
Ok.. SO what else can we talk about? |
It is not as cut and dry as that. The 51 VIN matches on the plate and under the seat. The frame number is oct 52. The two numbers on the pan don't match. The pan also has no choke pull and has the round twist knob for the heat, clearly not 51 details. All of the other details are old split, bumpers, trim, 16" wheels, horn button, tail lights, horn grills, fenders, popes nose, hood handle, solid emblem, doors with one piece windows and old split winders knobs.
Now it is possible that someone wrecked a 51 in late 52 and had it rebuilt with current production parts including the body shell and pan and grafted the VIN onto the frame or if it was a new replacement pan it might not have had numbers on it so whoever repaired it stamped the 51 number on it. I would think that replacement pans would have a frame number but no VIN just as a replacement body would have a body number and no VIN.
It is indeed a weird car. I don't necessarily think that it came out of the factory that way. But it is not just simply a late 52 body on a 51 pan either.
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53 0val
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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IMO............that car is worth less than a honest Zwitter. If I owned it, I'd part it out as fast as you could spell FAKE. 
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Bruce
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Location: Left coast, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 9:29 pm Post subject: |
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| johnshenry wrote: |
| RareAir wrote: |
| Bruce wrote: |
This is NOT a myth or a car that was pieced together from a bunch of parts.
There exists a second one of these special production cars, here in Vancouver. This local car is well documented and was featured in the early 90s in hotVW's. At first, the owner assumed it to be a late 52/early 53 body on an earlier pan, but this isn't true. All the numbers provided by VW matched the car.
|
For those interested, it's the August 1988 issue of Hot VWs. Car was owned by Dana Craighead (Vancouver, Canada) According to the article, here's a few specs on the car:
Body number- 354310- Oct 1952
(under serial number)
Frame number- 432520- Oct 1952
(on Left front brake hose bracket)
VIN- 225891- January 1951
(on pan under the rear seat & on the front tag)
Engine number- 272538- January 1951
(on engine block) |
OK, well that slams the door shut on that theory then, doesn't it? An early Zwitter body on an early '51 chassis.
|
Not so fast.
Why would the frame number on the LF brake hose bracket not match the chassis number stamped under the back seat? If someone was doing a body swap, why would the brake hose bracket be changed?
Here's a pic of the inside of the right door of Dana's car (from the hotVW's article):
And here's a pic of a normal 52-55 door:
Notice how Dana's inside door handle is higher than the standard oval handle? This says Dana's doors are split doors. His doors do not have vent windows. Why would anyone adapt split doors to a zwitter body back in the 50s?
This car originally came from Belgium. Like in Germany, they had to upgrade the signals and brake lights. Rather than simply bolting on new tail lights, the owner bought 4 new fenders and installed the new lights with them. When Dana got the car, it came with the original fenders. Those had round horn grills, and early split only tail lights, not hearts. Also, the front hood emblem is solid. The licence light and hood handles are from 51 too. If someone was doing a body swap, why would they retain all these split parts?
Dana bought the car from the original owner. When questioned about the differences, the owner said that's the way he got the car.
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johnshenry
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Joined: September 21, 2001
Posts: 9418
Location: Northwood, NH USA
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 9:43 pm Post subject: |
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| RareAir wrote: |
| Bruce wrote: |
This is NOT a myth or a car that was pieced together from a bunch of parts.
There exists a second one of these special production cars, here in Vancouver. This local car is well documented and was featured in the early 90s in hotVW's. At first, the owner assumed it to be a late 52/early 53 body on an earlier pan, but this isn't true. All the numbers provided by VW matched the car.
There is one theory that Heinz wanted to update the look of the car, so he comissioned these cars to be made. Out of respect for old man Porsche, he was invited to view the cars. Porsche didn't like what he saw It deviated too much from his original concept, so VW dropped the idea. Shortly after, Porsche died, then VW went ahead with the upgrades. |
For those interested, it's the August 1988 issue of Hot VWs. Car was owned by Dana Craighead (Vancouver, Canada) According to the article, here's a few specs on the car:
Body number- 354310- Oct 1952
(under serial number)
Frame number- 432520- Oct 1952
(on Left front brake hose bracket)
VIN- 225891- January 1951
(on pan under the rear seat & on the front tag)
Engine number- 272538- January 1951
(on engine block) |
Those number/months are wrong. It seems that Hot VWs didn't realize that the published numbers are the LAST of the months production, not the first (Not surprised). Thus:
Body number- 354310- Nov 1952
(under serial number)
Frame number- 432520- Nov 1952
(on Left front brake hose bracket)
The VIN and Engine number months were correct- 2
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johnshenry
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Joined: September 21, 2001
Posts: 9418
Location: Northwood, NH USA
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 9:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Bruce wrote: |
| johnshenry wrote: |
| RareAir wrote: |
| Bruce wrote: |
This is NOT a myth or a car that was pieced together from a bunch of parts.
There exists a second one of these special production cars, here in Vancouver. This local car is well documented and was featured in the early 90s in hotVW's. At first, the owner assumed it to be a late 52/early 53 body on an earlier pan, but this isn't true. All the numbers provided by VW matched the car.
|
For those interested, it's the August 1988 issue of Hot VWs. Car was owned by Dana Craighead (Vancouver, Canada) According to the article, here's a few specs on the car:
Body number- 354310- Oct 1952
(under serial number)
Frame number- 432520- Oct 1952
(on Left front brake hose bracket)
VIN- 225891- January 1951
(on pan under the rear seat & on the front tag)
Engine number- 272538- January 1951
(on engine block) |
OK, well that slams the door shut on that theory then, doesn't it? An early Zwitter body on an early '51 chassis.
|
Not so fast.
Why would the frame number on the LF brake hose bracket not match the chassis number stamped under the back seat? If someone was doing a body swap, why would the brake hose bracket be changed?
Here's a pic of the inside of the right door of Dana's car (from the hotVW's article):
And here's a pic of a normal 52-55 door:
Notice how Dana's inside door handle is higher than the standard oval handle? This says Dana's doors are split doors. His doors do not have vent windows. Why would anyone adapt split doors to a zwitter body back in the 50s?
This car originally came from Belgium. Like in Germany, they had to upgrade the signals and brake lights. Rather than simply bolting on new tail lights, the owner bought 4 new fenders and installed the new lights with them. When Dana got the car, it came with the original fenders. Those had round horn grills, and early split only tail lights, not hearts. Also, the front hood emblem is solid. The licence light and hood handles are from 51 too. If someone was doing a body swap, why would they retain all these split parts?
Dana bought the car from the original owner. When questioned about the differences, the owner said that's the way he got the car. |
Interesting observations, but come on. How could a car supposedly built in 1950 have a body number stamped on it that fell right in line with the production numbers from Nov '52? Same for the frame number (God only knows why). That is the nail in the coffin of this legend I'm afraid....
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52HoffmanSplit
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 10:16 pm Post subject: |
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| 53 0val wrote: |
| IMO............that car is worth less than a honest Zwitter. If I owned it, I'd part it out as fast as you could spell FAKE. |
x1000 I mean.. ok.. its a split, made up of split parts... but it certainly isn't the missing link of VW evolution as Bruce contended. Behind every Urban Myth is a qualified welder..
Whose to say it wasnt smashed to the windshield.. a new Framehead put on the pan.. a new front clip welded on... and the VIN plate riveted to that clip. that would make the body number and frame number correct (both from the same donor car).... and the VIN on pan and front plate correct. It's as possible as anything when supposition is king!
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11/1966 Porsche 912
7/1968 Type 265 Double Cab
4/1955 Type 117 - 3 Fold |
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