| Author |
Message |
Robw_z
Samba Member
Joined: April 28, 2007
Posts: 994
|
 Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 2:29 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| FNGRUVN wrote: |
This is a van that Rocky Mountain Westy is putting together. I like how the rear nerf bar flows into the rear bumper. They had to modify the slider door linkage to clear the other side. The way they did it was pretty slick. |
Wow, cover that front bar with sheet metal and you have the worlds first aerodynamic Vanagon! I seriously wonder if that would boost mpg.
-Rob |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
onwardtothestars 
Samba Member
Joined: April 04, 2007
Posts: 385
Location: Hazenville Pass Wyoming
|
| Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 2:43 pm Post subject: |
|
|
That front bar set-up is a little over the top. I do like the rear bars though.
_________________
Beetle, Ghia, Vanagon Syncro, and more |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
levi
Samba Member
Joined: February 11, 2005
Posts: 5522
Location: Las Vegas
|
| Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 5:04 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| 1621 wrote: |
I often see some really nice bumpers, but I am curious about the weight effecting ride and performance. Does anyone know the relative weight of the stock bumper versus something like the tube bumpers and GW bumpers? |
This is a real good point.
I have, just about a month ago, added a used set of aircoolednet tube bumpers. They advertise 100# for each bumper. Didn't put them on a scale, but it felt like about 80# for the rear and 100# for the front, maybe more. Versus the stock bumpers which only weigh about 5#, there is just a huge difference in the handling now.
I'm running D rated tires at 60#, and these tires have very stiff sidewalls, so with other tires it should be an even greater difference in the handling.
Putting an extra 100# out on the extremities of the van isn't even close to the feel of putting that weight in the middle.
As far as performance, I don't notice any difference in acceleration, so that aspect means nothing to me. (I'm subaroo'd)
Although I really like the look of these bumpers, I'm almost certain I'll be swapping them out for something else in the near future.
Also, every edge of these aircooled.net bumpers has seam rust bubbling up.
_________________
One of these days I'm gonna settle down,
but till I do I won't be hangin round.
Going down that long lonesome highway,
gonna see life my way
https://youtu.be/cSrL0BXsO40 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bd
Samba Member
Joined: January 26, 2008
Posts: 153
Location: west seattle
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 9:15 am Post subject: |
|
|
I'd say the relative difference is virtually infinite...because whatever the GW bumpers weigh (don't really know), mathematically you're comparing them to a number that approaches zero.
My plastic tristar/carat-y front bumper, while cool looking, maybe weighed 6lbs. And my more-typical rear bumper, while barely qualifying as 'made of actual metal,' was about the same.
So they had that going for them...but they were utterly worthless as actual, you know, bumpers.
I notice no difference whatsoever in the drive. Totally recommended.
_________________
1990 2wd TriStar, Oettinger-tuned 1.6L TD |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Alaric.H
Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2009
Posts: 2529
Location: Sandy Springs GA
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 11:31 am Post subject: |
|
|
| With heavy bumpers you need stiffer springs I am at 750lb on mine. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Vanagonner
Samba Member
Joined: September 15, 2009
Posts: 506
Location: Broomfield Colorado
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 12:15 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| Putting an extra 100# out on the extremities of the van isn't even close to the feel of putting that weight in the middle. |
The more weight that is put on the ends of the vehicle, the slower it will be to respond to steering inputs.
.
.from the innernets-
POLAR MOMENT OF INERTIA
"A very important handling concept, which dictates the willingness of a car to change directional position is called Polar Moment of Inertia. “Poles of inertia” are just another way of saying “center of weight concentration”. The “moment” in this concept is determined by the front-to-rear location of the center of gravity. The car turns (changes direction) about its center of gravity in a corner so the further away the centers of weight concentration are located from the center of gravity (which is their common center), the bigger the “moment”.
A high polar moment of inertia is present when the weight concentrations are heavy and are far apart. The low polar moment of inertia is found when weight concentrations are light and are close together. In other words, it is easier to steer a vehicle with a low polar moment of inertia.
A vehicle with a low polar moment of inertia gives a quick response to steering commands. A vehicle with a high polar moment has high directional stability (meaning it resists changing its direction)."
_________________
Sage
'82 Westy 1.6 D
the mighty n/a |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gorge Runner
Samba Member
Joined: February 24, 2008
Posts: 199
Location: Portland, OR
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 2:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Vanagonner wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Putting an extra 100# out on the extremities of the van isn't even close to the feel of putting that weight in the middle. |
The more weight that is put on the ends of the vehicle, the slower it will be to respond to steering inputs.
.
.from the innernets-
POLAR MOMENT OF INERTIA
"A very important handling concept, which dictates the willingness of a car to change directional position is called Polar Moment of Inertia. “Poles of inertia” are just another way of saying “center of weight concentration”. The “moment” in this concept is determined by the front-to-rear location of the center of gravity. The car turns (changes direction) about its center of gravity in a corner so the further away the centers of weight concentration are located from the center of gravity (which is their common center), the bigger the “moment”.
A high polar moment of inertia is present when the weight concentrations are heavy and are far apart. The low polar moment of inertia is found when weight concentrations are light and are close together. In other words, it is easier to steer a vehicle with a low polar moment of inertia.
A vehicle with a low polar moment of inertia gives a quick response to steering commands. A vehicle with a high polar moment has high directional stability (meaning it resists changing its direction)." |
I've got the Big Bar Bumpers from Van Cafe and haven't noticed any difference in steering responsiveness. I suspect it takes more than just heavy duty bumpers to make a notable difference.
While the concept is interesting, it fails to say how much weight at the ends is required for the driver to notice a difference or at what speed or turning radius.
So, according to this theory, a stock van with fiberglass bumpers is x times more responsive than one with big bumpers?
Anyone care to figure that out?
Marc
_________________
91 Carat
EJ205 WRX |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Vanagonner
Samba Member
Joined: September 15, 2009
Posts: 506
Location: Broomfield Colorado
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 3:20 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Marc, if I had the mathematical ability to figure that out, I'd be driving a $100k Syncro to my Chateau.
Here is the drill for understanding polar moment intuitively-
Get a broomhandle and two buckets of sand. Grab the pole in the middle, hold it horizontally and twist it side to side. Now put both buckets on the pole close to your hand (on either side of it) and twist it side to side. Now move the buckets of sand out to the ends of the pole and do the same thing. The weight has not changed (with buckets on), only the location of the mass relative to the pivotal center. Handling is subjective and complicated. I just think this adds one factor. A high PMI is most noticable when going thru an S turn. I like bull bars but don't have one now. When I get one, it will be relatively light and simple. But if I had a Syncro just for playing in the dirt, I would feel free to get crazy with the bars.
_________________
Sage
'82 Westy 1.6 D
the mighty n/a |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bd
Samba Member
Joined: January 26, 2008
Posts: 153
Location: west seattle
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 3:41 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Well, I think it takes a car that handles in the first place. 
IMO, we're really splitting hairs with syncro bricks. Want to change handling? Put a loaded ice chest in it. Or fill the gas tank. Add a passenger or two.
If you need bumpers (I think we all do), or a bull bar (some do), then that fact/desire prolly outweighs (pun intended) some hard-to-detect and harder-to-quantify 'handling' considerations.
Do I want to be able to lift off predictably in an understeer situation at speed, while trying to post my best lap time, or maybe my best-ever time to the beach? Not so much.
Do I want a grandma to be able to tap me in a grocery store parking lot without crushing some NLA unobtainium sheet metal? All Day Long.
YMMV, or course...
_________________
1990 2wd TriStar, Oettinger-tuned 1.6L TD |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gorge Runner
Samba Member
Joined: February 24, 2008
Posts: 199
Location: Portland, OR
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:19 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Vanagonner wrote: |
Marc, if I had the mathematical ability to figure that out, I'd be driving a $100k Syncro to my Chateau.
Here is the drill for understanding polar moment intuitively-
Get a broomhandle and two buckets of sand. Grab the pole in the middle, hold it horizontally and twist it side to side. Now put both buckets on the pole close to your hand (on either side of it) and twist it side to side. Now move the buckets of sand out to the ends of the pole and do the same thing. The weight has not changed (with buckets on), only the location of the mass relative to the pivotal center. Handling is subjective and complicated. I just think this adds one factor. A high PMI is most noticable when going thru an S turn. I like bull bars but don't have one now. When I get one, it will be relatively light and simple. But if I had a Syncro just for playing in the dirt, I would feel free to get crazy with the bars. |
You explained it very well the first time. Look, I'm totally stupid with math so I can't really figure it out either, I just don't think its a perceivable problem for anyone. Your example of the buckets of sand on a broom handle is an inverse scenario since the bumpers (the buckets of sand in this case) are a very small fraction of weight of the vanagon --the broom handle.
Marc
_________________
91 Carat
EJ205 WRX |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Rocky Mountain Westy
Samba Member
Joined: April 17, 2008
Posts: 1036
Location: Fort Collins Colorado
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:51 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I have been working on a new bolt on brush guard for our Twin Peaks plate bumpers. I have them jigged up. It is also a modular set up. Five pieces that bolt together. This one is off to the powdercoater this week. These pictures will probably be close to the final product. I am up for input and ideas too. These will bolt on to every Twin Peaks bumper we have ever sold.
Check it out
_________________
Rocky Mountain Westy Inc.
www.rockymountainwesty.com
970-310-3441
[email protected]
The Splitzgauer build (when I have time to work on it and update the thread)
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=497133 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
insyncro
Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 15086
Location: New York
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 7:04 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Looks good  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mick Ord
Samba Member
Joined: April 26, 2008
Posts: 203
Location: Vancouver, BC
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SCM
Samba Member
Joined: January 26, 2011
Posts: 3380
Location: Bozeman MT
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 7:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Mick Ord wrote: |
| How about this style... |
Hey Mike, one of the things that prevents me from considering a Twin Peaks Bumper is the bolts that are visible at the end caps and D-ring locations. I notice the bumper linked by Mick looks similar but doesn't have all that hardware - a bit more streamlined looking. Any chance you would produce a "one piece" bumper like that?
To take it a step farther, how about something that looks as close as the stock fiberglass bumper with a slight curve to it (similar to GW's but more stout yet still light-ish in weight) and a trim piece (metal bulge to mimic the rubber strip on a OEM steel bumper)? Man, I bet all the 2wd guys that don't dig the Mad Max look a lot of Syncro guys are going for and just want to be able to stand on their bumpers (so add a textured step) and have an integrated 2" reciever (for a bike rack etc, not towing capacity), - dude, I think you'd sell a ton of 'em. And as long as I'm brainstorming/venting, shallow inset slots to accept optional reflectors in the rear and similar ones in the front that could be completely knocked out to accept fog lights, maybe a deep inset for license plates...
_________________
'91 Westfalia GL Automatic (GTA "Turbo" Rebuild w/Peloquin) and 2.3L GoWesty Engine |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BoneMachine
Samba Member
Joined: January 15, 2012
Posts: 202
Location: MA, Boston Strong
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 8:20 pm Post subject: |
|
|
X2 on the inset/knock out, to accept fog lights and I already have twin peaks mounted on my van.
_________________
'85 Wolfsburg Edition Westfalia Weekender, Zetec #36, w/ Peloquin TBD
'83.5 Westfalia, full camper (we'll never forget you) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
danbar
Samba Member
Joined: October 16, 2011
Posts: 472
Location: North Bend, WA
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:41 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I seem to recall trolling your website not too long ago and seeing what I assumed was a prototype bull bar on a twin peaks that wrapped around the side a little like the land rover one pictured above. Am I crazy or was that real? I like the slight wrap around too.
As for the one above I do like the shape of the crossbars and the size is good. To me the uprights look a little out of place though. Not sure why but something doesn't quite sit right with me. Perhaps they are a little too sharp/severe looking. I do dig the twin peaks set up and hope to get some in the future. I would definitely consider a bull bar as well if the design came out well. Best of luck.
_________________
'88 SCA High/Pop-top Syncro camper
'61 Meyers Manx |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Rocky Mountain Westy
Samba Member
Joined: April 17, 2008
Posts: 1036
Location: Fort Collins Colorado
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 2:35 pm Post subject: |
|
|
So I looked at doing this. Unfortunately tube bending is not magic. The Vanagon front corner is really short and then the door is right there. The minimum distance between bends is too large to go around the corner and then bend down towards the ground. I would be past the door gap at that point. The only way to do it would be to cut and splice the tube and that is too labor intensive for a production piece like this at the targeted price point.
_________________
Rocky Mountain Westy Inc.
www.rockymountainwesty.com
970-310-3441
[email protected]
The Splitzgauer build (when I have time to work on it and update the thread)
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=497133 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Rocky Mountain Westy
Samba Member
Joined: April 17, 2008
Posts: 1036
Location: Fort Collins Colorado
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 3:03 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| SCM wrote: |
Hey Mike, one of the things that prevents me from considering a Twin Peaks Bumper is the bolts that are visible at the end caps and D-ring locations. I notice the bumper linked by Mick looks similar but doesn't have all that hardware - a bit more streamlined looking. Any chance you would produce a "one piece" bumper like that? |
There has been a long debate about the hardware. I have had customers go and paint them black, It looks goodand I think it is a good solution. I like using stainless hardware because it doesn't rust. We talked about this again this morning at our production meeting. We are going to research alternatives again. As far as a one piece bumper goes, we will not turn this bumper into one piece. It will kill the price point. Way harder to ship, store, make, powdercoat etc. [/quote]
| SCM wrote: |
To take it a step farther, how about something that looks as close as the stock fiberglass bumper with a slight curve to it (similar to GW's but more stout yet still light-ish in weight) and a trim piece (metal bulge to mimic the rubber strip on a OEM steel bumper)? Man, I bet all the 2wd guys that don't dig the Mad Max look a lot of Syncro guys are going for and just want to be able to stand on their bumpers (so add a textured step) and have an integrated 2" reciever (for a bike rack etc, not towing capacity), - dude, I think you'd sell a ton of 'em. And as long as I'm brainstorming/venting, shallow inset slots to accept optional reflectors in the rear and similar ones in the front that could be completely knocked out to accept fog lights, maybe a deep inset for license plates... |
This has been talked about. I doubt we would sell a ton of them but there is a probably a market. We'll see how things go. There are quite a few projects in the hopper right now.
_________________
Rocky Mountain Westy Inc.
www.rockymountainwesty.com
970-310-3441
[email protected]
The Splitzgauer build (when I have time to work on it and update the thread)
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=497133 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
joseph928
Samba Member
Joined: September 22, 2011
Posts: 2114
Location: flagstaff az.
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 3:31 pm Post subject: bumper guard |
|
|
 Hey- Mike nice guard. Does it also mount up high by the head light? Otherwise you would have a lot of flex into it! 
_________________
1987 syncro westy tin top sun roof , GW2.3, rear locker, decoupler, Gary Lee tire rack & winch mount, lift, south african grill, big brakes , rhein alloy ,15 BFG AT, Fiamma 10 foot awning ,140 watt rear 85 watt front solar , mppt, truckfridge, automatic fire extinguishing system, tencent oil cooler, And a RMW SS exhaust! - 1971 bug convertible 1776 engine- 2010 Subaru turbo - 1993 Toyota 4x4 truck - 1999 Harley 95 CI, big bore, Andrews cams . Also 80-84- vans. Stock 65 sunroof bug. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Rocky Mountain Westy
Samba Member
Joined: April 17, 2008
Posts: 1036
Location: Fort Collins Colorado
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 3:50 pm Post subject: Re: bumper guard |
|
|
| joseph928 wrote: |
| Hey- Mike nice guard. Does it also mount up high by the head light? Otherwise you would have a lot of flex into it! |
It is actually really pretty stout. It has quite a bit of gusseting to it. I am going to make optional mounts that will attach to the crossmember between the grills. It will require drilling in the body, which is why they will be optional.
_________________
Rocky Mountain Westy Inc.
www.rockymountainwesty.com
970-310-3441
[email protected]
The Splitzgauer build (when I have time to work on it and update the thread)
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=497133 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
