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one4house
Samba Member
Joined: July 18, 2009
Posts: 1121
Location: Sherman Texas
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 Posted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 6:58 am Post subject: |
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I should be dropping the motor and transmission today. I keep hearing talk about "early" vs "late" automatic transmissions. How do I tell the two apart? What numbers am I looking for on the unit I am going to buy this weekend? Are there any auto units I should avoid?
I also heard that the units out of squarebacks were different than the units in fast and notch. How do I tell this? I have a lot of questions.........
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one4house
Samba Member
Joined: July 18, 2009
Posts: 1121
Location: Sherman Texas
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one4house
Samba Member
Joined: July 18, 2009
Posts: 1121
Location: Sherman Texas
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| Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 7:36 am Post subject: |
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| one4house wrote: |
I should be dropping the motor and transmission today. I keep hearing talk about "early" vs "late" automatic transmissions. How do I tell the two apart? What numbers am I looking for on the unit I am going to buy this weekend? Are there any auto units I should avoid?
I also heard that the units out of squarebacks were different than the units in fast and notch. How do I tell this? I have a lot of questions......... |
Here is a reply on the type 3 mailing list that Jim put up for me.
All credit on this goes to Jim A. I don't know if he is Samba or not.
"> I keep hearing of "early" vs "late" units. How do I identify one vs
> the other? What part numbers am I looking for? Where are the part
> numbers located?
There are actually 3 generations:
'68-9 had 5-bolt flanges around the output shafts. These were
eliminated in '70, making the construction slightly simpler, less
leaky, and more reliable. Very early ones came with torque converters
that had fewer, larger cooling fins. Those are less desirable, but
the later TCs are an exact replacement.
'70-1 lacks the 5-bolt output flanges and has a vacuum modulator with
a diaphram section (the large diameter part) that's less than 1/2"
thick. These are the best units in my opinion, but that's based on
very little data. If your car is a '69-71, this is the style you'd
hope to find.
'72-3 looks just like the '70-1 except that the vacuum modulator has
a diaphram section that's more than 1/2" thick. If your car is a
'72-3, I hope you find one of these.
On ALL of these ATs, it's important to know that the vacuum modulator
is located in a place that's very vulnerable if the AT is sitting on
the ground. If the VM gets bent, you may be able to straighten it,
but it's likely that it will have to be replaced. And if you have to
replace it, it MUST be adjusted, which is a fair bit of work.
> I also hear that the automatic unit out of a Squareback is unique.
> What is the difference? Again, what am I looking for?
Fastback and Squareback ATs are the same, but they are different from
all other VW ATs. Don't try to make do with a different version.
> Any words of caution anyone has? I am pretty much stuck with this
> unit, but I want to know what I am getting. It can help on the price
> negotiation if I have more knowledge.
If it's been dragged around on the ground the VM is toast. The late
VM is expensive, and you can't replace it with the early one. Try to
get it with the TC, but pull the TC off to check the snout on the
tranny for wear where the seal seals. Polish that snout before you
reinstall.
There is a dome cover on the upper left side that is sealed with an
O-ring. Replace that O-ring before you install the AT. It's just easy
to get to then, and that O-ring always needs to be replaced. I have
the O-rings or you may still be able to get them at a VW dealer.
In general, our ATs have been very reliable. The most common problem
is that leaky o-ring and leaks around the output shafts that leave
the final drive dry and ruin the differential gears. Note that this
unit takes both ATF and GL-5, so make sure to drain and fill both.
If you take off the AT pan to check it out and drain the fluid. Don't
overtighten the pan bolts. Tighten to the spec torque, wait 5
minutes, tighten again, wait 5 minutes, tighten again. I STRONGLY
recommend a set of Belleville washers here to replace the split ring
lockwashers that VW used. The Belleville washers will prevent
deformation of the pan, as long as you don't overtighten the bolts.
It's a bit of extra work, but you might be wise to remove the output
flanges and replace the output seals before you install an old unit.
If it's been sitting a long time, there could be rust there that
would quickly destroy the seals and lead to oil loss and failure of
the final drive.
When you go to install it, pull the TC off and check the inner shaft.
It will pull out and you'll want to spin it in your fingers as you
install it to make SURE it's all the way in. Then install the TC. The
TC isn't in correctly until the stump in its middle is flush with the
mating face of the tranny. Check it with a straightedge. Make SURE
this is correct BEFORE you mate it to the engine."
I just wanted to add this in case anyone else was wondering the same thing I did.
_________________
My Old 64 Field Find
My Old 66 Squareback
My Old 66 Beetle
My Old 70 Squareback |
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Donnie strickland
Samba Member
Joined: December 21, 2009
Posts: 2403
Location: Moody, AL
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| Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 8:21 am Post subject: |
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Jim's on here sometimes, but not a whole lot...
Thanks for sharing that!
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71 Elm Green FI A/T Squareback |
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paradox_pete
Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2013
Posts: 32
Location: 4 Corners
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| Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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| I can confirm that Multi69S is correct concerning the pinion seal. It can be changed from behind the bearing race without removing the race. It does require removing the ring gear/differential unit and pinion gear shaft. I scribed the "teeth" on either side of the lock tabs prior to disassembly to ensure I got the ring and pinion back together in the same positions. I also checked ring gear backlash both before and after as a double check. Replacement of all the other seals is obvious. |
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one4house
Samba Member
Joined: July 18, 2009
Posts: 1121
Location: Sherman Texas
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Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 23283
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 6:04 am Post subject: |
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| one4house wrote: |
While I am waiting to find quite transmission I might as well fix some other issues. What are some other breather options besides the one in the picture? this one is too tall.
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Since you're running carbs, you'll want a 71 and earlier stock single plastic cap unit. I'd look for the entire assembly though, as sometimes trying to seperate them is a bitch (I destroyed a couple trying to get them apart).  You can use any single cap breather and stand (62 to 71), but the "square" version (68 to 71) would be more "correct" for your year engine.
Also, try and get a bolt in there, as it helps support the torque of the generator (it IS a mounting bolt for the shroud). That tie strap isn't going to last long. 
If you do swap the entire assembly, you'll have to pull the fan off it to access the 6mm screw that goes into that breather stand from inside. It's hiding behind the big fan. This would be a good time to pull all of the small 6mm screws, and add some loctite to them, as they are known for coming loose and making a hell of a noise. 
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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one4house
Samba Member
Joined: July 18, 2009
Posts: 1121
Location: Sherman Texas
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one4house
Samba Member
Joined: July 18, 2009
Posts: 1121
Location: Sherman Texas
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Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 23283
Location: Kimball, Mi
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KTPhil 
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 35704
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 9:09 am Post subject: |
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| I hand it to you for sticking by the automatic. Many would drop it and convert to a stick. Your patience will be rewarded with a smooth, easy-driving car that is surprisingly peppy when you learn to shift with the throttle. Hang in there! |
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one4house
Samba Member
Joined: July 18, 2009
Posts: 1121
Location: Sherman Texas
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| Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 9:17 am Post subject: |
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| KTPhil wrote: |
| I hand it to you for sticking by the automatic. Many would drop it and convert to a stick. Your patience will be rewarded with a smooth, easy-driving car that is surprisingly peppy when you learn to shift with the throttle. Hang in there! |
My knee-jerk reaction was to go standard. The main reason was the fact that my parts car was standard and all of the pieces were there. I have since sold all of the pieces and decided to stay automatic.
Along those lines, there will be precautions taken so that this never happens again. My understanding is that these transmissions will last forever. I want to make sure of that by using lock-tight and aviation wire on the CV axle shafts this time. Working at a machine shop, I have the luxury of having things made custom. One of the custom touches of my car will be holes drilled in the cv shaft bolts for the aviation wire to be run through. Here is to custom touches. 
Also, I have a trick up my sleeve as far as the transmission goes. I am keeping that under the hat for now......to be continued.
_________________
My Old 64 Field Find
My Old 66 Squareback
My Old 66 Beetle
My Old 70 Squareback |
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one4house
Samba Member
Joined: July 18, 2009
Posts: 1121
Location: Sherman Texas
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| Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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Since I pride myself on "learn from experience and take note of advice" I decided to go ahead with the "cheap Chinese cv shafts."
I will save my stock CV shafts and rebuild them. They can be a shelf item if needed in the future or something I sell if these work out like I hope they do. Here are another sets of pictures for prosperity sake.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1148636.jpg
Now if I could just find a transmission to connect them to.
_________________
My Old 64 Field Find
My Old 66 Squareback
My Old 66 Beetle
My Old 70 Squareback
Last edited by one4house on Mon Jan 27, 2014 5:29 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Donnie strickland
Samba Member
Joined: December 21, 2009
Posts: 2403
Location: Moody, AL
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Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 23283
Location: Kimball, Mi
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Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 23283
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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| one4house wrote: |
Since I pride myself on "learn from experience and take note of advice" I decided to go ahead with the "cheap Chinese cv shafts."
I will save my stock CV shafts and rebuild them. They can be a shelf item if needed in the future or something I sell if these work out like I hope they do. Here are another sets of pictures for prosperity sake.
Now if I could just find a transmission to connect them to. |
So they had the short axle in stock? Good to know IF I ever decide to narrow the rear of my MT IRS car. 
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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one4house
Samba Member
Joined: July 18, 2009
Posts: 1121
Location: Sherman Texas
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| Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Bobnotch wrote: |
He's really looking for a 70 and later unit. |
I appreciate you posting that up Donnie. I had that one offered to me before he posted it. I passed because off it being an early unit. I have my transmission problem solved. I will divulge more at a later date.
_________________
My Old 64 Field Find
My Old 66 Squareback
My Old 66 Beetle
My Old 70 Squareback |
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Donnie strickland
Samba Member
Joined: December 21, 2009
Posts: 2403
Location: Moody, AL
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one4house
Samba Member
Joined: July 18, 2009
Posts: 1121
Location: Sherman Texas
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Tram
Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 23034
Location: Northwest of Normal
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| Posted: Sat Dec 28, 2013 4:38 pm Post subject: |
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Use rubbing alcohol to kill mould.
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Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
| Bryan67 wrote: |
| Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
Those who can- do.
Those who can't? Subaru. |
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