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77 Front Beam Rebuild
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Tcash
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 8:01 am    Post subject: 77 Front Beam Rebuild Reply with quote

77 Deluxe wrote:
Marcus finally got to use the tools that I had made up to do the front beam….I doubt that there’s a luckier front beam in the world Smile

Tools VW 771, 772 and appropriate washer discs made up based on details courtesy of Andrew’s (1500king) workshop manuals and some info from SGKent - thanks as ever guys
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1.http://i528.photobucket.com/albums/dd323/shurmsurf/Tool1_zps2297d215.jpg
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2.http://i528.photobucket.com/albums/dd323/shurmsurf/Untitled6_zps65a9bd79.jpg
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4.http://i528.photobucket.com/albums/dd323/shurmsurf/Untitled9_zpsb0219338.jpg[/img][/URL]
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5.http://i528.photobucket.com/albums/dd323/shurmsurf/Untitled3_zps6febbd77.jpg[/img][/URL]
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6.http://i528.photobucket.com/albums/dd323/shurmsurf/Untitled5_zps3335b62b.jpg[/img][/URL]
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7.http://i528.photobucket.com/albums/dd323/shurmsurf/Untitled4_zpsb3c0c81b.jpg[/img][/URL]
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8.http://i528.photobucket.com/albums/dd323/shurmsurf/Untitled2_zps82b1cfcc.jpg[/img][/URL]
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9.http://i528.photobucket.com/albums/dd323/shurmsurf/Untitled1_zps0a06f53d.jpg[/img][/URL]

Tools for removing and inserting needle rollers and metal bushings
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10.http://i528.photobucket.com/albums/dd323/shurmsurf/50a00a87.jpg[/img][/URL]

Before….
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11.http://i528.photobucket.com/albums/dd323/shurmsurf/DSCN0385.jpg[/img][/URL]

Beam was stripped right down, spring leaves carefully removed, beam ends plugged with wooden blocks cut to size. Beam sandblasted, primered and then painted in glasurit paint formula code that I got from member a57oval (thanks)

In primer
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12.http://i528.photobucket.com/albums/dd323/shurmsurf/37456C16-E46A-4C6C-897C-9D400FFF392B_zpsatajas03.jpg[/img][/URL]

Painted
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13.http://i528.photobucket.com/albums/dd323/shurmsurf/6CCD9E5F-2F9D-477C-91D9-60766A941FDD_zpseqdyshqx.jpg[/img][/URL]

NOS steering pin kit found in Sweden
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14.http://i528.photobucket.com/albums/dd323/shurmsurf/FE2D2ECC-5AAE-4001-BC28-9C38E42C8685_zpslsaoi2l6.jpg[/img][/URL]

and installed with help of special tool
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15.http://i528.photobucket.com/albums/dd323/shurmsurf/5BE99842-5D8D-424D-89AB-DA1053FA9705_zpsuieccxkc.jpg[/img][/URL]
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16.http://i528.photobucket.com/albums/dd323/shurmsurf/8975B2D1-7812-4E75-AB28-F75C27377D99_zpsuodr76iw.jpg[/img][/URL]

Arms cleaned, checked for wear (they were fine), stripped cleaned & repainted, NOS ball joints installed
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17.http://i528.photobucket.com/albums/dd323/shurmsurf/C63229DD-CDFD-4945-8A9B-650F515C76CB_zpshxzi4urq.jpg[/img][/URL]
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18.http://i528.photobucket.com/albums/dd323/shurmsurf/7BCA7CDA-AA5D-4B28-AD2B-6BA74F489931_zpsuixhpzmq.jpg[/img][/URL]

Metal bushings & needle roller bearings removed and replaced with new as per manual careful not to damage plastic sleeve:
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19.http://i528.photobucket.com/albums/dd323/shurmsurf/workshopmanual0001_zpsf742f6b0.jpg[/img][/URL]
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20.http://i528.photobucket.com/albums/dd323/shurmsurf/workshopmanual0002_zps90ae7864.jpg[/img][/URL]
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21.http://i528.photobucket.com/albums/dd323/shurmsurf/workshopmanual0003_zps26aaa063.jpg[/img][/URL]
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22.http://i528.photobucket.com/albums/dd323/shurmsurf/EE6FFEC8-4ED0-4995-970B-A7FE155A2A50_zpsx4xbaq6k.jpg[/img][/URL]

More pics of this part of process to follow

Spring leaves reinserted:
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23.http://i528.photobucket.com/albums/dd323/shurmsurf/F2425EBB-CB4E-45F8-96AA-08DBC3AE3412_zpsanhvf7wl.jpg[/img][/URL]

Bump stops in clipped place
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24.http://i528.photobucket.com/albums/dd323/shurmsurf/7BCA7CDA-AA5D-4B28-AD2B-6BA74F489931_zpsuixhpzmq.jpg[/img][/URL]

Installed on bus with cad plated bolts of course and heavily regreased:
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25.http://i528.photobucket.com/albums/dd323/shurmsurf/DE523596-7990-4969-95B0-B6254B859D01_zpsjsdcykv5.jpg[/img][/URL]

I was told that from beams were a dark art shrouded in mystery but with the right tools, it’s safe to say that Marcus has mastered it Smile


Last edited by Tcash on Sat Oct 08, 2016 5:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
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SGKent Premium Member
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave has a wonderful machinist. Dave sent me a couple of the tools the fellow made to go with what we already had and they are wonderful. TCash thank you for posting his thread with drawings to help others with a beam rebuild. The only thing that might be of value is that to remove old grease, one can get a throw-away wooden yardstick, and a soft spatula with a wooden handle. Glue or tape the spatula to the yard stick and use it so scoop the old grease out. I also include a photo of the two style of inner bearings - early and late bays. A special tool is needed to remove and install them.

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Inner bearings

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Godspeed to all who undertake a journey with a VW Bus.

*You can do it right the first time, or do it over, the choice is yours. It is a free country. As to brakes, steering, tires, axles etc. - you may only get one chance at doing those right.

* VW Buses and VW cars share many of the same systems but if you haven't owned a bus and maintained it for awhile, you really don't know how different it is.

Bus Engine Cooling Issues? https://kentcomputer.com/77VW/BusEngineCooling.pdf
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guanella74
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow. Beautiful. Might it be possible to have another of those tools made? Would love to invest in one What's the contact info for the machinist? PM me if possible. Thank you!
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

guanella74 wrote:
Wow. Beautiful. Might it be possible to have another of those tools made? Would love to invest in one What's the contact info for the machinist? PM me if possible. Thank you!


He is in Australia.
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Godspeed to all who undertake a journey with a VW Bus.

*You can do it right the first time, or do it over, the choice is yours. It is a free country. As to brakes, steering, tires, axles etc. - you may only get one chance at doing those right.

* VW Buses and VW cars share many of the same systems but if you haven't owned a bus and maintained it for awhile, you really don't know how different it is.

Bus Engine Cooling Issues? https://kentcomputer.com/77VW/BusEngineCooling.pdf
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unless the beam is rusty then it's much easier to avoid sandblasting and the cleanup involved. Oven cleaner, the generic old smelly type, works fantastic to get it clean. An old broom handle with a rag swab wired on the end works great to push out, swab and clean the inside. End up with more clean swabs and lots of solvent to flush out the tubes.

Carefully inspect the bearings. No need to replace them if they check out to be in good condition. The challenge will be to get the needle bearings totally clean. Solvent in a syrenge to keep flushing them and wiping out the residue with clean cloths or paper towels. Keep flushing until they are immaculately clean. Dry and then work good grease fully back into the needles.

The bundle of leafs originally had small tack welds at the ends to hold the bundle together. And the little welds commonly break off. Thats good. Then you can go ahead and pull all the leafs apart, thoroughly clean them and smear grease on all their surfaces before reassembling. They need lube where they contact each other.
Without the tack welds on used leafs to help on reassembly it can be a real task. So assemble the stack of leafs and insert them half way into the beam, to engage the beams center locator block. Then put the control arm on one side but just enough to get it engaged. Then slide the whole thing all the way through and install the opposite control arm. Get both ends engaged before you push them all together in place. Then lock down the center grub screw to secure the leaf bundle.. Before you put the grub screw in the hole inspect in there and make sure the dimple in the leaves are lined up.

A common way people fail bigtime when treating the front beam is how they don't properly lube it. The wheels must be hanging down unsupported. Just jacking the bus up is not enough. Follow instructions in your service manual. Wink

And somewhere along the line you would have given it some good primer and paint.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2015 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

when you say inspect the needle bearings...what exactly are you looking for? Ive never done this part of the job before, so im not sure what to look for? right now, they are all covered in grease, in the process of digging it all out of the torsion tube.

torsion arms were also slathered in grease when they came out.

using a bottle brush with a sock over it, taped to a yardstick has proven to be a great tool for tube swabbing.

also, when i go to reassemble..as it will be all clean..shoudl i start greasign the zerks once th elafs are in, but befor ei get th torsion arms put back on, so i can see how much ive put in? or just grease once reassembled till it starts oozing out?
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1973 VW Bus [o____o] Urklegrue thread:
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"Weld Busler" Bus rebuild thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=630499 1600SP
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2015 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yarkle wrote:
when you say inspect the needle bearings...what exactly are you looking for? Ive never done this part of the job before, so im not sure what to look for? right now, they are all covered in grease, in the process of digging it all out of the torsion tube.

torsion arms were also slathered in grease when they came out.

using a bottle brush with a sock over it, taped to a yardstick has proven to be a great tool for tube swabbing.

also, when i go to reassemble..as it will be all clean..shoudl i start greasign the zerks once th elafs are in, but befor ei get th torsion arms put back on, so i can see how much ive put in? or just grease once reassembled till it starts oozing out?


I just look at the old torsion arms when they come out to see if there is weird wear on the arms. That will tsll you a lot. You can roll the needles with your fingers and you will feel if they are rough or flat spotted. I greased mine once back together with the beam still up in the air. You'll start to see when it is coming out evenly. Then hit it a few weeks after you use it to make sure it has all it wants. Get extra grease and do not mix greases. Just keep extra around for when you need it.
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Godspeed to all who undertake a journey with a VW Bus.

*You can do it right the first time, or do it over, the choice is yours. It is a free country. As to brakes, steering, tires, axles etc. - you may only get one chance at doing those right.

* VW Buses and VW cars share many of the same systems but if you haven't owned a bus and maintained it for awhile, you really don't know how different it is.

Bus Engine Cooling Issues? https://kentcomputer.com/77VW/BusEngineCooling.pdf
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2015 3:31 am    Post subject: Re: 77 Front Beam Rebuild Reply with quote

Good to see the love being shared! Cool

Find a decent machinist in your area and have them made. Smile

You will just love how nicely a bus drives when you have everything right. Smile
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2015 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok, so i wasnt sure what you meant by "weird wear", until i got to this one:

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is this proof positive i need to pull the bearings and replace with these?

http://www.wagenswest.com/partstore/index.php/bus-...hings.html

or is this something i can try and regrease?

if nit, can i just pull just that side, can i leave the other stuff in, or do i have to swap all four bearings/bushings for urethane?

the other arms looked pretty good:

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the needle bearins "look" ok, they arent binding, but something obviously chewed up that arm

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when Leb was scooping out the grease, he did pull what i originally thought was the remnants of a torsion arm seal..it had the same contour, but it was kind of hard, it didnt really look likr a bushing, but i suppose it could have been one? I dont see any gouges, but its hard to tell

EDIT: checking it again, it looks like the side in question has maybe a 1/8 of an inch gap between the bearign and the edge of the tube? the other three sides, bearings appear to be flush against the side.

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1973 VW Bus [o____o] Urklegrue thread:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8272498#8272498 1.7 914? engine with weber progressive clone (soon to be 72 dual carb setup)
1969 VW Bus deluxe 221 -belongs to the boy
"Weld Busler" Bus rebuild thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=630499 1600SP


Last edited by Yarkle on Fri Jun 12, 2015 6:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2015 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

is that a gouge. Which side did it come from and what did the wear? Or is it simply glare in the photo?

In answer to your question - the spec "b" is in the Bentley manual like the image below and the link in the thread above. You need a special tool to move those without damaging them. How close are you to Randy?

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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Godspeed to all who undertake a journey with a VW Bus.

*You can do it right the first time, or do it over, the choice is yours. It is a free country. As to brakes, steering, tires, axles etc. - you may only get one chance at doing those right.

* VW Buses and VW cars share many of the same systems but if you haven't owned a bus and maintained it for awhile, you really don't know how different it is.

Bus Engine Cooling Issues? https://kentcomputer.com/77VW/BusEngineCooling.pdf


Last edited by SGKent on Fri Jun 12, 2015 6:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2015 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its dark now, but im pretty sure that one was just glare...Ill double check in the AM.,..

what concerned me more was the first picture where it looks like teeth marks going all the way around the torsion arm. that one was the passenger side upper.

I dont know what made it wear that way..i suppose its possible these arent the original torsion arms, and someone put some crappy ones on it in the past.

Randy: I think hes 20 miles or less?
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1973 VW Bus [o____o] Urklegrue thread:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8272498#8272498 1.7 914? engine with weber progressive clone (soon to be 72 dual carb setup)
1969 VW Bus deluxe 221 -belongs to the boy
"Weld Busler" Bus rebuild thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=630499 1600SP
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2015 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yarkle wrote:
Its dark now, but im pretty sure that one was just glare...Ill double check in the AM.,..

what concerned me more was the first picture where it looks like teeth marks going all the way around the torsion arm. that one was the passenger side upper.

I dont know what made it wear that way..i suppose its possible these arent the original torsion arms, and someone put some crappy ones on it in the past.

Randy: I think hes 20 miles or less?


what made that wear is that the torsion tube caught the bearing as it was put in and rather than look at the issue and try again someone used a BFH to drive it in. I am willing to bet those gouges align with the needles. That is probably why that one is pushed in. You will need the tool or to make one to pull it back out. New needle bearing are around but they last forever and can be found in a donor too, but as I indicated you need the tool to pull them. You can use a mill file to clean up the marks at the end so they don't catch again. You can also use some 2000 grit wet and dry with a little oil or wd-40 to polish the bearing surfaces on the torsion arms to see what shape they are in. Some of those wear marks will polish right out so that the needles and inner bushing have a smooth surface to ride on. You don't want to remove material, just shine up the races. That will tell you if there is deeper wear or not.
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Godspeed to all who undertake a journey with a VW Bus.

*You can do it right the first time, or do it over, the choice is yours. It is a free country. As to brakes, steering, tires, axles etc. - you may only get one chance at doing those right.

* VW Buses and VW cars share many of the same systems but if you haven't owned a bus and maintained it for awhile, you really don't know how different it is.

Bus Engine Cooling Issues? https://kentcomputer.com/77VW/BusEngineCooling.pdf
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2015 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep, the pictures do not show it very well, but it looks like there are little needle bearing marks just past the gouged parts..

I have new (rebuilt) torsion arms wiht ball joints im putting in, so reusing those ones isnt an issue, its just that I dont want it to happen again..I see bus depot has new needle bearings and bushings.

Assuming I can get ahold of the tool..should i just try and move that one back, or replace it? and just that one, or all four--would it cause uneven wear or something like that?

IF I cannot get the tool, red urethane?

EDIT: could i make one of those threaded rod/washer/nut type contraptions, apply some heat, and pull the needle bearing back to where it needs to be? or will that destroy it?...

ill check in the AM to make sure the other arm isnt gouged and see if i can get a better idea of the bushing health.

Im pretty sure you are right about how this happened, hopfeully its just the bearing they dicked with
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1973 VW Bus [o____o] Urklegrue thread:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8272498#8272498 1.7 914? engine with weber progressive clone (soon to be 72 dual carb setup)
1969 VW Bus deluxe 221 -belongs to the boy
"Weld Busler" Bus rebuild thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=630499 1600SP
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2015 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

replacing one is fine. You can even use a used one.

No heat. It will move fine with a slap hammer and the tool. Leave the inners alone.
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Godspeed to all who undertake a journey with a VW Bus.

*You can do it right the first time, or do it over, the choice is yours. It is a free country. As to brakes, steering, tires, axles etc. - you may only get one chance at doing those right.

* VW Buses and VW cars share many of the same systems but if you haven't owned a bus and maintained it for awhile, you really don't know how different it is.

Bus Engine Cooling Issues? https://kentcomputer.com/77VW/BusEngineCooling.pdf
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Randy in Maine
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2015 7:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SG Kent and Yarkie,

I don't know the answer to this question. I requested some help from both the Foxman and Amskeptic (aka "the big guns") for their thoughts.

Yarkie, I am up here in OOB so I could come down there if REALLY needed.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2015 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just grease once reassembled till it starts oozing out. With a little grease gun plan on about 15-20 minutes of pumping, per side!

Your needle bearings look ok to me, and I would write that wear off to lack of grease at some point along the trip.

I have some good used needle bearings here, just down the street from Randy, if you need them.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2015 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks!

SGKent: Ok, the "gouge" on the one you put the red arrow on is just glare from the ipodflash. I ran my finger around all of the torsion arms and all four of them are smooth in that area. I also cheked all of the inner bushings, all of them look like they are thick and there are no visible gouges or defects.

Randy and Foxmon, do either of you have the tool that SGKent is talking about so I can pull that bearing back into specs?

Randy, I think I can do this on my own if i can get the tool, but I appreciate your offer..I may have to take you up on that when i get really stumped on something..this bus needs...ALOT..of work.

Needle Bearing: Do i need to actually remove it and reinsert it, or can I just pull it back to where it needs to be..the other three "feel" like they are snug agaisnt the grease seal. or is it one of those things where it doesnt come out evenly?
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1973 VW Bus [o____o] Urklegrue thread:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8272498#8272498 1.7 914? engine with weber progressive clone (soon to be 72 dual carb setup)
1969 VW Bus deluxe 221 -belongs to the boy
"Weld Busler" Bus rebuild thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=630499 1600SP
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Randy in Maine
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2015 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I don't have the tool for sure, but there may be a "suspension guy" down around Portsmouth that may as I doubt it is unique to just us Bus guys.

Foreign Auto in Kittery on Government Street or Precsison on Bartlett Street in Portsmouth may be worth going to do this part.
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Yarkle Premium Member
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2015 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmmm...Ive been to precision auto before, one of the brothers is into aircooleds. Unfortunately, this isnt the only sick part of the bus, so its not like I can put the arms back on, drive it over, and have them fix it for me.

Ill see If I can borrow something from them, if not, would something like this work?:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/oes-27059?seid=srese1&gclid=CM6SubmVjcYCFVWPHwodvqEAiA

also, does anyone know if i can just pull this back to the edge of the grease seal, or do i need to pull it all the way out (how does the grease seal retainer come off?) and put it back in? I saw an earlier thread where they say to stick the bearign in the freezer and heat up the end of the torsion arm and it "just slides right in"

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=584197&highlight=needle+bearing+puller

Lastly, assuming I find a puller or suitable replacment, is it readily apparent if I mess up the bearing when removing/moving it?
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1973 VW Bus [o____o] Urklegrue thread:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8272498#8272498 1.7 914? engine with weber progressive clone (soon to be 72 dual carb setup)
1969 VW Bus deluxe 221 -belongs to the boy
"Weld Busler" Bus rebuild thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=630499 1600SP


Last edited by Yarkle on Sat Jun 13, 2015 11:36 am; edited 1 time in total
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SGKent Premium Member
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2015 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yarkle wrote:
Hmmm...Ive been to precision auto before, one of the brothers is into aircooleds. Unfortunately, this isnt the only sick part of the bus, so its not like I can put the arms back on, drive it over, and have them fix it for me.

Ill see If I can borrow something from them, if not, would something like this work?:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/oes-27059?seid=srese1&gclid=CM6SubmVjcYCFVWPHwodvqEAiA

also, does anyone know if i can just pull this back to the edge of the grease seal, or do i need to pull it all the way out (how does the grease seal come off?) and put it back in? I saw an earlier thread where they say to stick the bearign in the freezer and heat up the end of the torsion arm and it "just slides right in"

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=584197&highlight=needle+bearing+puller

Lastly, assuming I find a puller or suitable replacment, is it readily apparent if I mess up the bearing when removing/moving it?


Yarkle - I have a solution for you if you will PM Randy later today.
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Godspeed to all who undertake a journey with a VW Bus.

*You can do it right the first time, or do it over, the choice is yours. It is a free country. As to brakes, steering, tires, axles etc. - you may only get one chance at doing those right.

* VW Buses and VW cars share many of the same systems but if you haven't owned a bus and maintained it for awhile, you really don't know how different it is.

Bus Engine Cooling Issues? https://kentcomputer.com/77VW/BusEngineCooling.pdf
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