Turn signals flash when they should not

[pantone149]

73 bus. New Hazard switch. All new bulbs and all good sockets. All connections scrubbed/sanded. Grounds are very good. Flasher relay must be good because I have 4 of them and they all do the same thing. Pull out the Hazard switch and everything works perfectly. Turn the key and switch on either the right or left turn signals and everything works perfectly. Turn off the turn signals and the signals, relay, and dashboard lights flash at about double speed. The turn signal switch is a good (I hope) used one. Any hints?

[telford dorr]

I suspect that either something is wired wrong or the emergency switch is messing up. With the switch pushed all the way in (and the turn signal switch centered), there should be no connection to the front turn lights or rears.

The e-switch in early Bays has a history of falling apart (usually fixed with a zip tie). Not sure about late Bays. As yours is new, not likely an issue, but can't hurt to check. We're assuming the switch is working correctly only because it is new. Wouldn't hurt to check it on the bench with an ohmmeter. Switch internal details are shown on the '73 schematic.

If everything works fine when activated, but fails when everything is 'off', then my first thing to check would be connections to the e-switch (specifically 15, 30, '+' and 49a).

Q:
- do the front lights flash along with the rears?

I think you're going to have to break out the schematic and a test light on this one....
For turn signals, the highlighted '72 schematic is basically the same as your '73. Might be easier to follow:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/info/wiring/bus_1972_TurnSignals.jpg
Otherwise, here's the new style, highlighted:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/info/wiring/bus_8_72_usa_turn.jpg
_________________
'71 panel, now with FI
'Experience' is the ability to recognize a mistake when you're making it again - Franklin P. Jones
In theory, theory works in practice; in practice, it doesn't - William T. Harbaugh
When you're dead, you don't know you're dead. The pain is only felt by others.
Same thing happens when you're stupid. - Philippe Geluck
More VW electrical at http://telforddorr.com/ (available 9am to 9pm PST)

[pantone149]

Thanks: Q:
- do the front lights flash along with the rears? Yes, fronts and backs all flash as they should.

[telford dorr]

To be clear, I was thinking of when things are flashing fast, when they shouldn't be flashing at all. All four flashing then?

Method of isolation:

- remove the 'R' and 'L' wires from the e-switch and insulate. Does the fast flashing stop? The normal turn signal switch functions should still work in this mode.

- if things are still weird, put the 'R' and 'L' wires back, and disconnect the 'R' and 'L' wires at the turn switch. In this mode, the turn switch won't work, but the hazard lights should.
_________________
'71 panel, now with FI
'Experience' is the ability to recognize a mistake when you're making it again - Franklin P. Jones
In theory, theory works in practice; in practice, it doesn't - William T. Harbaugh
When you're dead, you don't know you're dead. The pain is only felt by others.
Same thing happens when you're stupid. - Philippe Geluck
More VW electrical at http://telforddorr.com/ (available 9am to 9pm PST)

[pantone149]

I've got to check that. I'm not sure. The turn signal arrows on the dash are flashing, but not sure if the exterior lights are too. Hmmmm.

[telford dorr]

If both of the tests above still result in fast flashing, then disconnect (and insulate) the following wires, one at a time, until the weirdness stops:

1) 49a at the hazard switch

2) 54BL at the turn switch

3) 49a at the flasher

Basically, something is putting a light load on the flasher output all of the time.

Here's a weird thought: The common wire to the turn lamps on the dash is supposed to go to +12 volts. If it were to somehow be grounded (or disconnected) instead, the indicator lamps themselves would be enough of a load to buzz the flasher. Do the ALT and OIL lights, and fuel gauge work right? [They're on the same 12 volt feed as the turn indicators...]
_________________
'71 panel, now with FI
'Experience' is the ability to recognize a mistake when you're making it again - Franklin P. Jones
In theory, theory works in practice; in practice, it doesn't - William T. Harbaugh
When you're dead, you don't know you're dead. The pain is only felt by others.
Same thing happens when you're stupid. - Philippe Geluck
More VW electrical at http://telforddorr.com/ (available 9am to 9pm PST)

[pantone149]

I need to run the 1-2-3- tests first and then check your other recommendations. As far as the ALT and OIL lights are, I don't know as I'm retrofitting a Subaru engine and am yet to get that part of the wiring connected yet. Same thing with fuel gauge. My main concern is basic safety stuff light headlights, stop lights, turn signals. thanks, however. I think I have a good place to start debugging.

[longboardskier]

Before you get into all that, try flipping the bulbs upside down from where they are in the sockets. I know it sounds funny, but it happened to me and that fixed it.
_________________
1977 Sunroof Bus w/ Riviera Top
1996 Jetta GL
2007 Rabbit

[pantone149]

Thanks everyone. I've gone through most all your suggestions and still have the problem. Here's what I did last night: 1) ignition key on 2) relay goes crazy (about 2x normal speed). Exterior turn signal lights do not flash at all while this is happening. Interior (dash) indicators do flash in unison 3) turned on headlights and no change 4) turned on wipers and no change 5) checked grounds (more on that below) 6) checked bulbs and their installation = good. 7) made sure 49a at the hazard goes to 49a at the relay...15 to 15....rinse and repeat.

I've been refurbing this bus for several months and any time I touch an electrical connector it gets sanded, brushed, sprayed, re-soldered, whatever it takes to get it nice and shiny. That includes all grounds and screws. All connections then get dialectric grease. I've gone through miles of solder (OK, it's an exaggeration, but you get the idea).

I need to check the hazard switch. Even though it's new, one never knows sometimes. The old one literally disintegrated in my hands and this one came from Bud Depot.

[telford dorr]

If the exterior turn lights don't flash, then the only load on the flasher are the dash indicators (assuming nothing is cross-wired). Check to see if the common feeder to the dash lights has 12 volts on it (the blue-red wire from fuse 11). If not, that's your problem. If it does, disconnect the two dash lights and see if the flasher stops flashing.
_________________
'71 panel, now with FI
'Experience' is the ability to recognize a mistake when you're making it again - Franklin P. Jones
In theory, theory works in practice; in practice, it doesn't - William T. Harbaugh
When you're dead, you don't know you're dead. The pain is only felt by others.
Same thing happens when you're stupid. - Philippe Geluck
More VW electrical at http://telforddorr.com/ (available 9am to 9pm PST)

[busdaddy]

[pantone149]

I matched using the Old Volks Home diagram.

[pantone149]

If the exterior turn lights don't flash, then the only load on the flasher are the dash indicators (assuming nothing is cross-wired). Check to see if the common feeder to the dash lights has 12 volts on it (the blue-red wire from fuse 11). If not, that's your problem. If it does, disconnect the two dash lights and see if the flasher stops flashing.

The exterior lights do not flash. I removed the Blk/Wht and Blk/Gn that go from the hazard switch to the exterior lights and the turn signals did not work either. I need to check the blue-red to fuse 11. I have the ability to spend at tops 30 minutes at a crack messing around with wiring problems before I can't stand it any more. I'll bet that describes 80%-90% of the Samba.

[richparker]

My OG hazard switch was falling apart so I bought a new one from BD and it was crap. I ended up rebuilding the OG switch and it still works great.
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’71 Westy build
Adventure thread
’65 Deluxe Build
’71 Double Cab

[pantone149]

Found the problem, but no a solution (yet). Removed the R&L from the Hazard and no changes to rapid flash. Disconnected R&L from turn signal switch and signals no longer worked but still rapid flash. Removed 49a at hazard, then 54BL at turn signal, then 49A at flasher relay and still rapid flash. Checked common wire (blue-red) to dash bulbs and got 12v. Disconnected turn signal dash bulbs and the rapid flash stopped. Yay.

The next thing I did was run a separate ground wire from the turn signal dash bulbs and they flashed normally in all modes and never rapidly. Did the same with a continuity light (which added a third bulb to that circuit) and still no fast flash. It appears that the dash bulbs, which plug into the back of the dash pod, are getting false power. Remember that the dash pod has all sorts of stuff plugged into it (speedometer light, alt light, oil light, fuel gauge, etc) and has a bunch of ground terminals too. I need to remove one thing at a time to find the culprit or culprits.

I also really need to pull the steering wheel to give myself a little room to work. That will really help. thanks everyone!!