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modok
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 27678
Location: Colorado Springs
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 Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2015 7:16 pm Post subject: Re: Mazda 3 engine swap? |
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If using the stock VW trans, remember it can handle more RPM easier than more torque. The 2.0 can make just as much HP but at higher Revs.
Also, 6 cylinder engines have milder torque pulsations with are also easier on the gears. So, you'd think a six would kill the trans, but not necessarily. |
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Dale M.
Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2006
Posts: 20816
Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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| Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2015 7:22 pm Post subject: Re: Mazda 3 engine swap? |
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| the2ndcashboy wrote: |
| theKbStockpiler wrote: |
| Unless the 2.5 is used or the quad cam,we are looking at about 125 Hp with a twin cam engine from the specs I have seen in stock form. |
I looked it up, cause I've only heard ballpark numbers thrown around on the Subaru motors.
EJ20 SOHC ranged from 125-155 hp at the wheels.
EJ25 DOHC and SOHC were 155-165 hp, also at the wheels.
The turbo versions of each engine produced dramatically more HP of course.
How many street-driven ACVW's have you seen that put down an honest 150hp to the ground? |
Exactly.....
For the naysayers, you might try telling these guys just how bad a JDM Subie is!!!
http://www.outfrontmotorsports.com/
Dale
_________________
“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns"
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ... |
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 17865
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2015 7:43 pm Post subject: Re: Mazda 3 engine swap? |
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I dunno....I like them
Link
3rd gear pull in my bus
Link
dollar for dollar you just can't beat it...period. let the hate pour from the purists, but I just can't support cheap china shit anymore. If the parts out there were ok, it may be a different story.
if you don't do a new shortblock like I did, you can do a swap for the 3-4k range...that will barely buy you a new 1600...sorry but if I need another engine I will do another swap.
modok, sorry you hate the engines...I do agree the DOHC is a pain in the ass for what it is, but I am making great power with my bus...and a PAIR of cams for my build was 140.00.
_________________
| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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Singerdude
Samba Member
Joined: March 07, 2015
Posts: 464
Location: Quebec, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2015 9:09 pm Post subject: Re: Mazda 3 engine swap? |
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 priceless |
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Singerdude
Samba Member
Joined: March 07, 2015
Posts: 464
Location: Quebec, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2015 9:24 pm Post subject: Re: Mazda 3 engine swap? |
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delete:double post
Last edited by Singerdude on Sat Nov 21, 2015 9:52 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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theKbStockpiler
Samba Member
Joined: July 07, 2012
Posts: 2316
Location: Rust Belt
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| Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2015 9:38 pm Post subject: Re: Mazda 3 engine swap? |
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I can't give Hp claims that much merit because somehow heavier cars with lesser power can beat a ligher car with greater power.
_________________
My beetle is not competing with your beetle. I have the yellow beetle in my town. There is a red one, a green one ......
Use all safety devices including a mask. |
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the2ndcashboy
Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2007
Posts: 827
Location: Houston
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| Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2015 10:26 pm Post subject: Re: Mazda 3 engine swap? |
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| theKbStockpiler wrote: |
| I can't give Hp claims that much merit because somehow heavier cars with lesser power can beat a ligher car with greater power. |
I'm..... not sure what you mean by that. Are you saying that Subaru was lying when they said the EJ25 Impreza had 165hp at the wheels (all four remember? So even more HP at the crank than a comparably rated FWD car)? Wouldn't someone have sued their ass off by now if they were lying?
Or are you saying that most "200hp" ACVW motors probably have less whp than a Yugo?
_________________
| SRP1 wrote: |
| You see....... He talks in code and translation requires a priest, geologist, astronomer, biophysicist, and Indiana Jones. |
| modok wrote: |
| If anything comes out perfect it just means your measuring tools are substandard. |
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theKbStockpiler
Samba Member
Joined: July 07, 2012
Posts: 2316
Location: Rust Belt
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| Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2015 11:00 pm Post subject: Re: Mazda 3 engine swap? |
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So a Forester can beat a Fox body 5.0 in a quarter mile then?
_________________
My beetle is not competing with your beetle. I have the yellow beetle in my town. There is a red one, a green one ......
Use all safety devices including a mask. |
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the2ndcashboy
Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2007
Posts: 827
Location: Houston
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2015 5:04 am Post subject: Re: Mazda 3 engine swap? |
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| theKbStockpiler wrote: |
| So a Forester can beat a Fox body 5.0 in a quarter mile then? |
Yes, depending on which Forester of course. The 5.0's ran 14.7-15 in stock trim with ~210hp (the pre-85 5.0 was significantly worse/slower). The Subaru Forester with the 230hp EJ25 Turbo ran 14.3. I still don't see your point.
_________________
| SRP1 wrote: |
| You see....... He talks in code and translation requires a priest, geologist, astronomer, biophysicist, and Indiana Jones. |
| modok wrote: |
| If anything comes out perfect it just means your measuring tools are substandard. |
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theKbStockpiler
Samba Member
Joined: July 07, 2012
Posts: 2316
Location: Rust Belt
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2015 7:21 am Post subject: Re: Mazda 3 engine swap? |
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You changed the comparison to turbos and the 4 cam subaru's don't filt well in a type 1.What's does a stock impreza get in the quarter without a charger, 16's?
_________________
My beetle is not competing with your beetle. I have the yellow beetle in my town. There is a red one, a green one ......
Use all safety devices including a mask. |
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 17865
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2015 7:30 am Post subject: Re: Mazda 3 engine swap? |
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from wiki
The EJ engine was introduced in the 1989 Subaru Legacy to replace the EA engines. It was designed from scratch with five main crankshaft bearings and four valves per cylinder and can be either SOHC or DOHC and one timing belt. The fifth digit is the only way to tell without seeing the engine.
Subaru EJ20H twin turboEJ15: 1483.4 cc SOHC, 1990–2003 JDM Subaru Impreza
EJ16: 90 hp at 5,600 rpm used in the 1993–2006 Subaru Impreza
EJ18: 1820 cc SOHC 110 hp at 5,600 rpm used in the 1993–1996 Subaru Impreza and Euro and JDM Subaru Legacy
EJ20: 1994.3 cc, available in Europe and Japan naturally aspirated at 115–190 hp and with a Turbo 220–280 hp used on Most Models, (2002–2005 WRX in the United States)
EJ22: 2212 cc, 135–280 hp used in the 1989–2001 Subaru Impreza and Subaru Legacy
EJ25: 2457 cc, 165–320 hp found in Most Models 1995–Present
EJ30: Special limited engine. Four were built by Subaru, but only 3 remain in working condition. There is no readily available technical or power information on these engines.
Generally the EJ-series can be divided into two versions: the Phase I engines (1989–1998) and the Phase II engines (1999–2010). The Phase II engines featured new cylinder heads and crankshafts with the thrust bearing located at crank bearing #5 instead of #3. The designation also changed from Phase I to Phase II. All Phase I engines have an alphanumerical suffix behind the standard EJXX designation, all Phase II engines have a numerical suffix behind the EJXX designation.
_________________
| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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Dale M.
Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2006
Posts: 20816
Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2015 8:33 am Post subject: Re: Mazda 3 engine swap? |
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Another advantage of the Subie is its a new modern engine, lets say 150HP(?) at wheels stock, and if you are on the road and have a engine problem you stand a better chance of getting parts for engine at local FLAPS the you highly modified VWAC engine....
Friend of mine built beautiful Porsche RSK kit car and originally put a 125hp at the wheel ACVW motor and the idea of getting parts while car was on road was a worry to him... He upgraded to Subie (not sure what version) but with the EFI and added horsepower it put more life into car as to speed (cruise) and acceleration, and made car a lot more fun to drive and engine is in stock form....
Dale
_________________
“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns"
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ... |
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PumaVW79
Samba Member
Joined: January 31, 2012
Posts: 486
Location: WGS84: 22.9083° S, 43.1964° W
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2015 8:51 am Post subject: Re: Mazda 3 engine swap? |
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| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
| if you don't do a new shortblock like I did, you can do a swap for the 3-4k range...that will barely buy you a new 1600...sorry but if I need another engine I will do another swap. |
It's ok but I still choose the 1600. Performing an engine swap in order to gain more hp in an ACVW is like shooting fish in a barrel.
It would make more sense to swap whole cars. |
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 17865
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2015 9:00 am Post subject: Re: Mazda 3 engine swap? |
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| PumaVW79 wrote: |
| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
| if you don't do a new shortblock like I did, you can do a swap for the 3-4k range...that will barely buy you a new 1600...sorry but if I need another engine I will do another swap. |
It's ok but I still choose the 1600. Performing an engine swap in order to gain more hp in an ACVW is like shooting fish in a barrel.
It would make more sense to swap whole cars. |
 another narrow minded aircooled die hard...
so taking the 65 horse V8 out of a 34 ford coupe is a no go? I should look into a big block corvette instead...gotcha
_________________
| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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theKbStockpiler
Samba Member
Joined: July 07, 2012
Posts: 2316
Location: Rust Belt
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2015 9:04 am Post subject: Re: Mazda 3 engine swap? |
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Autoparts suppliers historically do not stock a lot of parts for subaru's. I assumed this was because the market was bad for them because they did not break down.
To reiterate my opinion on high peak Hp cars that can't do crap on the street; if the dyno numbers are true they don't include 10-30 oil ,accessories, (an alternator) etcetera or the engine is barely ever in its narrow peak Hp range. The only ricers I see not backing down to a race with a modified pony car are ones that are running over 15lb of boost.
_________________
My beetle is not competing with your beetle. I have the yellow beetle in my town. There is a red one, a green one ......
Use all safety devices including a mask. |
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the2ndcashboy
Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2007
Posts: 827
Location: Houston
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2015 10:30 am Post subject: Re: Mazda 3 engine swap? |
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| theKbStockpiler wrote: |
| You changed the comparison to turbos and the 4 cam subaru's don't filt well in a type 1.What's does a stock impreza get in the quarter without a charger, 16's? |
You didn't say which Forester now did you? I was attempting to make the closest comparison possible between the two vehicles. You just didn't know there was a Forester that could spank a 5.0  . Just FYI, the non-turbo Forester does the 1/4 in 16.8 @ 165hp, but it had an auto trans. The auto trans 5.0 (210hp) did around 16 in the 1/4. So your original comment about smaller lighter cars with more HP getting beat still doesn't make sense. When it comes to modern cars, horsepower is horsepower. They don't really play games with the numbers like they do with fuel economy. It is possible that a lower hp car can beat a higher hp car (for instance, the original model of that Forester XT ran high 13's with 10 less hp), but its usually because of weight, gear ratios, auto vs manual trans, etc.
_________________
| SRP1 wrote: |
| You see....... He talks in code and translation requires a priest, geologist, astronomer, biophysicist, and Indiana Jones. |
| modok wrote: |
| If anything comes out perfect it just means your measuring tools are substandard. |
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the2ndcashboy
Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2007
Posts: 827
Location: Houston
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2015 10:44 am Post subject: Re: Mazda 3 engine swap? |
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| theKbStockpiler wrote: |
| Autoparts suppliers historically do not stock a lot of parts for subaru's. I assumed this was because the market was bad for them because they did not break down. |
And VW's are better? Hell, my brother even had a New Beetle and getting parts for that thing was a nightmare. Everything was special order.
| theKbStockpiler wrote: |
| To reiterate my opinion on high peak Hp cars that can't do crap on the street; if the dyno numbers are true they don't include 10-30 oil ,accessories, (an alternator) etcetera or the engine is barely ever in its narrow peak Hp range. The only ricers I see not backing down to a race with a modified pony car are ones that are running over 15lb of boost. |
Oh so now it's "modified" pony cars? That's a real apples-to-apples comparison. And why are we even talking about 5.0's? Does anyone put them in VW's? I'm confused 
_________________
| SRP1 wrote: |
| You see....... He talks in code and translation requires a priest, geologist, astronomer, biophysicist, and Indiana Jones. |
| modok wrote: |
| If anything comes out perfect it just means your measuring tools are substandard. |
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theKbStockpiler
Samba Member
Joined: July 07, 2012
Posts: 2316
Location: Rust Belt
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2015 5:11 pm Post subject: Re: Mazda 3 engine swap? |
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I think the 4 cam subaru and the turbo versions have decent power but are too intrusive for a swap in a type 1. For the real world Hp increase of a dual cam 2.0- 2.2 subaru of 25 Hp compared to a stroked aircooled vw, I would put a type V in the car. Even 25 Hp is substantial but with the amount of work involved is too much in my opinion just to say you have a subaru in it. A bus is a different situation.
| Quote: |
| but it had an auto trans. |
If you have a car with a broad/flat torque peak curve you don't miss the manual transmission because the faster shifts make up for the Hp loss and auto's can withstand more power at a fraction of the cost of a manual. Some auto's don't have a lot of mass to spin either.
Where does a non charged subaru land in a comparison to other sedans like an accord or an avenger in a acceleration test?
_________________
My beetle is not competing with your beetle. I have the yellow beetle in my town. There is a red one, a green one ......
Use all safety devices including a mask. |
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 17865
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2015 6:04 pm Post subject: Re: Mazda 3 engine swap? |
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read post #9
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2308074
I have an identical(ish) build in my bus.
187 at all 4 wheels. n/a.
so, when you guys decide to pull your heads out of the sand, do some homework and realize you can do a "modest" (by Subaru guys definition) 200+ hp n/a build for a fraction of what it would cost to do aircooled....and it will survive forever, why would you f*ck with this old technology and piss poor parts?
every time I stick my head in this forum, there is always some catastrophe, be it a noob or a old timer. sorry, not fun to me anymore
SOHC's fit all vw platforms just fine. I think you need to trim bumper brackets? apron? in a bug (not a bug guy, so I don't know)
_________________
| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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the2ndcashboy
Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2007
Posts: 827
Location: Houston
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2015 6:23 pm Post subject: Re: Mazda 3 engine swap? |
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| theKbStockpiler wrote: |
| I think the 4 cam subaru and the turbo versions have decent power but are too intrusive for a swap in a type 1. For the real world Hp increase of a dual cam 2.0- 2.2 subaru of 25 Hp compared to a stroked aircooled vw, I would put a type V in the car. Even 25 Hp is substantial but with the amount of work involved is too much in my opinion just to say you have a subaru in it. A bus is a different situation. |
Ah, but the trick is actually comparing a Subaru to a stroked aircooled VW. We know what the Subarus put out (whether you want to believe it or not, the info is out there and has been verified). The general run of ACVW's? Not so much. I think there's a tremendous amount of HP inflation going on, especially in the people who build their own motors. I estimate my motor puts out around 120hp (1915 w/DRLAs, W120 cam, and Tims Stage II's) and I know it would have been a HELL of a lot cheaper to just put in an EJ20, and probably less man-hours too. Plus I could easily plop a turbo on an EJ20 and dramatically boost the HP. Not to mention that hypothetical EJ20 would be much lower maintenance and longer-lived than my high-strung ACVW.
| theKbStockpiler wrote: |
If you have a car with a broad/flat torque peak curve you don't miss the manual transmission because the faster shifts make up for the Hp loss and auto's can withstand more power at a fraction of the cost of a manual. Some auto's don't have a lot of mass to spin either.
Where does a non charged subaru land in a comparison to other sedans like an accord or an avenger in a acceleration test? |
I'm not going to sit here Googling 1/4 mile times for you all day just for you to keep moving the goalposts, especially when there's no point at all. How many Accord or Avenger motors have you seen in a VW? What's the point of comparing random other cars to the Subaru? If you want random numbers: the Firebird with a 3.8 V6 had 200hp and ran 4 tenths slower than the 5.0 Fox with only 10 more HP. Was that relevant in any way to VW's?
_________________
| SRP1 wrote: |
| You see....... He talks in code and translation requires a priest, geologist, astronomer, biophysicist, and Indiana Jones. |
| modok wrote: |
| If anything comes out perfect it just means your measuring tools are substandard. |
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