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Rebuilt AFM installed, problem got slightly better then worse.
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t3 kopf
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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2016 5:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuilt AFM installed, problem got slightly better then worse. Reply with quote

jayinduluth wrote:
According to the Bentley, that is a 1.9 air intake hose or boot.

I have possibly bigger problems. I took apart the AFM/filter housing so I could see the auxiliary air regulator better, in doing so I discovered that one of the hoses to the bottom of the vacuum shut-off valve, charcoal cannister was not connected. I connected it but noticed that the connector to the hose has a split in it. I must have knocked it off installing the AFM. So I put that back, assembled the AFM/filter back and like an idiot, thought I would go for a drive, because I guess I'm an eternal optimist. The drive around my neighborhood went fine, well, fine as in same symptoms, ok at the start, lacking any power from stop, but flooring it I would at least move and once it hit about 15mph, off to the races. I was able to floor it at least make it go up a hill, so I decided to take it out on city streets, got back to my hill (because Duluth is the san fran on the midwest...) to go my house, turned up said hill, got about two van lengths from intersection and it died. Tried to restart and it like its not getting gas. Some guy stopped. had me start it while he smelled the exhaust and said it was the fuel filter (which is new GW round one, between fuel pump and engine, installed last summer). I thought well, its probably not starting because I'm on an incline, but got towed up to my driveway, a relatively flat space and no start there either. Now I'm relatively disgusted and going to bed.


That hose at the bottom of the canister that goes to the Air box is just a drain. It doesn't affect running. On the 2.1 it just hangs into the frame. You seem to have multiple issues and you need to check how much vacuum you are pulling and you need to pin out your entire harness. I bet you find most of your issue in there.
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jayinduluth
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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2016 5:07 am    Post subject: Re: Rebuilt AFM installed, problem got slightly better then worse. Reply with quote

Last night I did a test on the idle stabilizer where you plug the plugs in together. The van started, but as soon as I applied gas to raise RPM's, it would die. The Digijet manual says if it starts, then its not the idle stabilizer. If you plug it back and starting problems continue, then replace stabilizer.
I also noticed some corrosion on the idle coil on one of the connectors.
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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2016 5:26 am    Post subject: Re: Rebuilt AFM installed, problem got slightly better then worse. Reply with quote

Did you check the alternator wires?

See this link below. His problem (& I think mine) is the alternator wiring.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=618186&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Jay brown sells a harness kit, better than OEM

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=598934

https://sites.google.com/site/vanagonheadlightrela...n-overview
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jayinduluth
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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2016 5:53 am    Post subject: Re: Rebuilt AFM installed, problem got slightly better then worse. Reply with quote

I did check the alternator wires and the ground wire did seem possibly suspect but the connection looked good, but yeah I plan on ordering Jay's harness today, plus I have an alternator the PO gave me that he never put in. Its a napa rebuild(?), which I'm hoping is ok.
In some other tests I did seem to be pointing to the hall ignition control unit. More testing tonight..
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jayinduluth
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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2016 6:46 am    Post subject: Re: Rebuilt AFM installed, problem got slightly better then worse. Reply with quote

t3 kopf - you need to pin out your entire harness. I bet you find most of your issue in there.
do you mean check for continuity of the ecu harness?
Vacuum was tested at shop last November when fuel pressure regulator was replaced and test OK.
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t3 kopf
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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2016 7:25 am    Post subject: Re: Rebuilt AFM installed, problem got slightly better then worse. Reply with quote

jayinduluth wrote:
t3 kopf - you need to pin out your entire harness. I bet you find most of your issue in there.
do you mean check for continuity of the ecu harness?
Vacuum was tested at shop last November when fuel pressure regulator was replaced and test OK.


Yes I'm talking about the entire ecu harness plus the other parts that don't go to the ecu like from the idle stabilizer to the the ignition control unit and hall sensor plug, fuel pump relay box to black box, grounds, etc. Get out the Bentley and check each wire, end to end.
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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2016 10:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuilt AFM installed, problem got slightly better then worse. Reply with quote

Wildthings wrote:

I would suggest doing the tests on the AFM as shown in the Bentley and if you can find someone local with the knowledge have them check the settings on the AFM wiper and spring and set the idle CO.


First let me say I know there are several components that try to keep the idle smooth and at a reasonable rpm, so I assume other parts of the system may try to compensate when 1 part is acting strangely or erratically.

My question was if the idle CO is set incorrectly, is it correct to assume this will that cause bad/rough idle all the time or might it cause an issue such as idle with no throttle is fine, but applying some throttle bogs the engine down (feels like running very rich) until the engine recovers and then revs up normally?
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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2016 11:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuilt AFM installed, problem got slightly better then worse. Reply with quote

jwallis wrote:
Wildthings wrote:

I would suggest doing the tests on the AFM as shown in the Bentley and if you can find someone local with the knowledge have them check the settings on the AFM wiper and spring and set the idle CO.


First let me say I know there are several components that try to keep the idle smooth and at a reasonable rpm, so I assume other parts of the system may try to compensate when 1 part is acting strangely or erratically.

My question was if the idle CO is set incorrectly, is it correct to assume this will that cause bad/rough idle all the time or might it cause an issue such as idle with no throttle is fine, but applying some throttle bogs the engine down (feels like running very rich) until the engine recovers and then revs up normally?


The impact of the CO adjustment on speeds and loads above idle speed is very limited, especially if the "basic setting" (I cannot remember how many turns out this is), has been done. All the adjustment screw does is permit a small, minutely adjustable amount of air to bypass the AFM mass measuring flap - - period. The AFM, by contrast, provides load information that the ECU uses to look up the opening time for the injectors measured in microseconds. This lookup solution is then still subject to the fuel trim done by the ECU's Lambda circuit. So, it is easy to imagine the very limited impact of CO adjustment on the symptoms described by the OP.

The CO adjustment is, however, very important for proper emissions control, so that is a major reason to get it adjusted properly. It also has an impact on smoothing out idle. I still believe that the major reasons for rough idle and idle misses are vacuum leaks (especially at a worn throttle body) and injectors that are not flowing equally, which can be remedied by ultrasonic injector cleaning.
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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2016 11:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuilt AFM installed, problem got slightly better then worse. Reply with quote

Great answer, specifically just by saying what it does. Thank you-
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Merian
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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 11:20 am    Post subject: Re: Rebuilt AFM installed, problem got slightly better then worse. Reply with quote

opening time for the injectors measured in milliseconds, right??
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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 5:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuilt AFM installed, problem got slightly better then worse. Reply with quote

Merian wrote:
opening time for the injectors measured in milliseconds, right??


Yes. I posted above after consuming my nightcap. Embarassed
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PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2016 10:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuilt AFM installed, problem got slightly better then worse. Reply with quote

jayinduluth wrote:
good grief, I completely forgot that I did this on Sunday and my rpm did not change when I pinched the hose. However, if I'm recalling correctly (which we all know how well that is working..) the rpm didn't change after it warmed up either, but I'll test again when I get home.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Where did this image come from? I did the first half (cold engine) of this test tonight and the RPMs did not drop. My van idles fairly well.

When I upgraded to a 2.1, I tested all these hoses and clamped them at both ends even though they never were before. I also replaced all the vacuum hoses, which van-cafe sells (by the foot) for very cheap. Took like 15 minutes.

Jay, you're really frustrated and while throwing parts at a problem sucks, if you're in it for the long haul (measured in decades), a lot of these parts are going to get replaced anyway. If you save your parts and later realize it had nothing to do with them and they're working fine, you can sell them here on theSamba.

That said, I'm not endorsing throwing parts at a problem, just saying that 1-we've all done it, 2-now you know the part's age. I have a spreadsheet with every part I've replaced and the date. I know the age of everything from my shocks to my fuel lines. Seems like every part breaks eventually. This was intended to be a pep talk.
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PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2016 11:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuilt AFM installed, problem got slightly better then worse. Reply with quote

~edit~
dammit I was wrong, the first time I posted this i kept saying idle control valve when I meant auxiliary air regulator. forgot there are 2 different parts (that seem to have a similar function) on digijet/digifant
~edit~


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Wildthings wrote:
jayinduluth wrote:
I assume the pinching of the hose an auxiliary air regulator is only for the 1.9? I'm home now and I'm not seeing that regulator, that hose goes to a T underneath the the air filter, so it must be part of the 2.1.



Something looks odd with the hoses in the picture to me. Don't have a Digijet available to compare them with though.


As mentioned, the auxiliary air regulator is under the airbox on the 1.9.

Far be it for me to contradict Wildthings, but this looks right to me. That hose off the plenum, parallel to the coolant crossover goes to the aux air reg. I can barely see the lower hose to the breather tower but I think it's there.

Jay, that hose that goes to the top of the S boot also connects to that regulator. I recommend you pull the airbox off and check that hose and the others associated with that regulator. I just put my thumb on one end and sucked on the other end. When you put it back on, might as well use clamps. Don't tighten it too much on the plastic piece, it's probly old. Make sure the plastic piece that goes into the S boot seats nicely and not allowing air in. I thought the little lip on it would go into the S boot on mine but it didn't, but still seems to make a nice seal.
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Last edited by jwallis on Tue May 31, 2016 10:11 am; edited 1 time in total
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jayinduluth
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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2016 6:33 am    Post subject: Re: Rebuilt AFM installed, problem got slightly better then worse. Reply with quote

Thanks.
That image came from this -

http://www.vanagonauts.com/files/Digijet_FI.pdf

but its also in the bentley.
I will look at the hoses more closely tonight.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2016 6:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuilt AFM installed, problem got slightly better then worse. Reply with quote

Finally got some time to continue testing.
Van would start and idle very low (300-400), lights would never go out but die when I applied throttle. The van never did this with the original AFM.

Fuel rail pressure test measures ~32 when pressurized, ~36 while pump is active. Fuel pump relay has been replaced.
Plug wires tested at .64 ohms
Plugs looked ok, but didn't have a gap tester.
There is 12v at alternator, hall connector plug, and 1 & 15 on ignition coil with idle stabilizer plugs looped.
I tested the new AFM and old AFM per bentley and both spec'd out ok.

Then I put the my original AFM. When I turned it over, I applied some gas and it started and I was able to actually hit the throttle and it did not die. It idled at 900 pretty good and I was able to continue to hit throttle without it dying. But the only way it would start was if I applied some gas while cranking. I have always had to do this since I have had the van.

I plan on checking the timing tomorrow.
Any one have additional thoughts on the AFM's? Or why I have to apply gas for my van to start?
Thanks!
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2016 7:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuilt AFM installed, problem got slightly better then worse. Reply with quote

jayinduluth wrote:
Finally got some time to continue testing.
Van would start and idle very low (300-400), lights would never go out but die when I applied throttle. The van never did this with the original AFM.

Fuel rail pressure test measures ~32 when pressurized, ~36 while pump is active. Fuel pump relay has been replaced.
Plug wires tested at .64 ohms
Plugs looked ok, but didn't have a gap tester.
There is 12v at alternator, hall connector plug, and 1 & 15 on ignition coil with idle stabilizer plugs looped.
I tested the new AFM and old AFM per bentley and both spec'd out ok.

Then I put the my original AFM. When I turned it over, I applied some gas and it started and I was able to actually hit the throttle and it did not die. It idled at 900 pretty good and I was able to continue to hit throttle without it dying. But the only way it would start was if I applied some gas while cranking. I have always had to do this since I have had the van.

I plan on checking the timing tomorrow.
Any one have additional thoughts on the AFM's? Or why I have to apply gas for my van to start?
Thanks!


I am going to say it again that something is not normal about the routing of the hoses on your engine. Those hoses that are connected together and parallel the coolant cross over hose aren't normal and may somehow be connected up to where the AAR is supposed to be connected. If the hoses are just plugged and not passing air around the throttle valve then you would have to give it throttle to get it to cold start.

Pull that odd contraption of hose off and tell use if you can suck air through it or not. Your AAR should look like this, it is not easily visible but you should be able to see the hoses going to it.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Here is another shot of a Vanagon 1.9 WBXer engine, notice that that strange hose you have is not there in this picture.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 6:59 am    Post subject: Re: Rebuilt AFM installed, problem got slightly better then worse. Reply with quote

Thanks for the reply.
The engine is a 91 2.1L.

The AAR is under the AFM. I will check hoses to it tonight as well.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 12:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuilt AFM installed, problem got slightly better then worse. Reply with quote

Well if WT and I were to disagree on something, I'd probably put my money on him. I just made a video of how mine's hooked up assuming it's hooked up correctly because this part of the system seems to be working well.

It's 16:18 cst now, should finish uploading in about 15 min.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCGczys49YE
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Last edited by jwallis on Wed Jun 08, 2016 12:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 12:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuilt AFM installed, problem got slightly better then worse. Reply with quote

jayinduluth wrote:
Thanks for the reply.
The engine is a 91 2.1L.

The AAR is under the AFM. I will check hoses to it tonight as well.



AAR on a 2.1L motor?
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 12:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuilt AFM installed, problem got slightly better then worse. Reply with quote

Merian wrote:
jayinduluth wrote:
Thanks for the reply.
The engine is a 91 2.1L.

The AAR is under the AFM. I will check hoses to it tonight as well.


AAR on a 2.1L motor?


It sounds like whoever did Jay's swap did the same thing I did, probably follow the http://www.oldvolkshome.com/19to21.htm instructions. The only thing I ended up swapping was the engine itself, air runners, and plenum. Since my cooling/FI systems were happy, I didn't want to fiddle with either of them.

I have an '84 and Jay started with an '85, and I know there's some weirdness with early/late '85s.
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