72 Super Beetle Stater Wiring Problem

[Indian Steve]

I am trying to figure out why the starter does not turnover from the switch. The previous owner had to jump the starter to the battery to start the car when I got it. I had no power to either of the wires going to the starter {under back seat wiring} I found 4 fuses missing and replaced them and now have power to the smaller red wire, which I assume is the solenoid wire when the key is turned on. I have no power to the big red wire when the key is on. The turn signal switch assembly is not on the car yet. PO installed a new ignition switch. Battery is at full charge. I Will ADMIT that I am an electrical IDIOT. Electricity seems like magic to me. Trying to follow the wiring diagrams makes me crazy. Does the turn signal assembly have to be wired in for the starter to work? Is there a neutral safety switch or something else in the system that I am missing? Should I just give up and sell one of ya'll the car as is? I'm going crazier than normal. Any help is appreciated.

[Tom K.]

Um, maybe attach the ground cable to the battery?
_________________
'91 Vanagon Westfalia
'70 Beetle Convertible
'71 Super Beetle Semi-Automatic: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=714131&highlight=
'65 Ghia: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=762478&highlight=

[Indian Steve]

In the first picture, the brown jumper is no longer there and the big red wire in the grey sleeve is now connected to the other big red through the white junction block and the little red is connected to little red through the same white junction block

[vamram]

[Indian Steve]

It was attached. I had it off when the picture was taken. I leave it off when ever I am not working on it.

[Cusser]

[Indian Steve]

Thanks Cusser! I will play more tomorrow.

[ashman40]

WOW! You have a crazy mess of wires. You need to find five (5) red (or red/white) wires somewhere under that rear seat. These are heavy gauge wires noticeably thicker than the others. I can see three and maybe the fourth, but you need to test and make sure they are the correct wires. How can you do this? You need to use an ohm meter or continuity meter. Do you have one of these and know how to use it?
Disconnect the battery and place your meter on one end of a wire connected between ground and the loose end of the wire. When you find the other end of the wire loosen it and touch it to ground and remove it from ground. You should see the meter respond proving you have found the correct wire.

These are the wires I can see:

Two red wires connected to the B+ terminal of the VR. I think you said they are now connected to a white junction? One of these wires is the red wire in the grey sleeve coming from the battery. The other enters the main harness lying on the floor pan and runs to the front of the car and ends at the fuse box #8 or #9 fuse.

The 3rd red wire comes from the generator D+ and ends at the D+ terminal of the VR. I'm guessing this 3rd wire also ends at the white junction?

The 4th red wire comes from the #50 terminal on the starter solenoid. It passes thru the firewall next to the center tunnel. I think it is the red wire in the grey sleeve at the bottom of your first pic? This is the #50 wire that energizes the starter solenoid. Place your car in neutral and set the parking brake. With your battery properly connected, touch the end of this red wire to the positive battery terminal. It should cause the starter to crank the engine.

The 5th wire is the remainder of the #50 wire. It starts at the ignition switch and comes out of the same harness resting on the floor pan next to the VR. There should be a junction under the rear seat that allows this #50 wire to connect to the #50 wire that ends at the starter solenoid. I think I see this 5th wire in the mess of wires, but you need to confirm. This wire should have 12v+ ONLY when the ignition key it turned all the way to START. Test which wire at the ignition switch plug has 12v+ ONLY when the key is in the START position (there is another wire that has 12v+ in START and in RUN/ON). The #50 wire should be a thick red/black wire. If this wire has 12v+ at the ignition switch, confirm the end under the rear seat also has 12v+. Not 10v, not sometimes 12v. If this is the case the wire connection is bad.

Confirm you have the correct 5 wires and connecting them correctly. If you have upgraded to an alternator then three of these wires connect together at the white junction. The remaining two (#50 wires) are connected together. These are ALL high amp wires. Make sure they are well insulated.
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!}

[Tom K.]

Wow, Ashman, your posts are always amazing - especially when dealing with electrical issues. Thanks for being such a great asset to this community!
_________________
'91 Vanagon Westfalia
'70 Beetle Convertible
'71 Super Beetle Semi-Automatic: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=714131&highlight=
'65 Ghia: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=762478&highlight=

[sb001]

Interesting- I looked up a few photos of your car in another thread and it doesn't show any signs of ever having been an autostick, however that thin red/blue wire going through the connector block right next to the thicker red starter wire (and out the floor pan inside the same sheathing) sure seems to be the wire for the ATF gauge in the dash. I can't think of anything else that could be.
At any rate you were correct to reconnect those red wires together through the connector block, the thick red one is from your ignition switch up front to the starter out back. That is how it is SUPPOSED to be wired anyway. I can't really tell from the photos, but if that brown lamp-cord looking wire was a jumper from the starter-side end of the thick red wire at the connector block, to the + battery terminal, then the PO was using that as a method to bypass all the wiring from back up front and back tot he back again. (You are simply dealing with old worn wiring/ connectors that are leaking too much current out in the path from the battery up to the front through the ignition and back to the starter. It happens all the time.) If the car always started with that jumper wire on there, then that's your problem. You can fix this using a simple hard start relay.
_________________
I'm the humblest guy on this board.

1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor

[Indian Steve]

Thanks Again to everyone. Ashman, you explained it so an idiot like myself could understand. Here are pictures of how I have it wired now. I opened the front lid to check out the fuse box and the first thing that I saw was the big black wire broke at the connector. I got excited but after fixing it, still no luck. I have 12.5 volts on both sides of #8 & #9 fuses. I have 12.5 at the regulator where the battery wire connects and on the generator wire. I still have nothing from the ignition switch {red/black wire} back to the solenoid. I guess next step is to see if I have power to the switch and back out. Also, What is the brown wire next to the voltage regulator? Is it a ground that is not connected? I know 3 of the extra wires are for the rear window defogger relay which will be taped off as the rear window was replaced with clear glass. My decrepit old body needed a break so I thought that I would do this update. Thanks Again

[Indian Steve]

I took the test light out, slid the connector block back a little from the ignition switch and did some checking. There was power to the switch but no power out to the solenoid with the key turned to start. I connected the hot wire to the switch to the wire to the solenoid and she turned over. The PO had replaced the switch before I got it. I am going to dig out the old switch and see if that works. Life is getting better. Thanks Again steve

[sb001]

It sounds like you have the problem isolated down to the ignition switch, that's good. You might double check the pin connectors under the steering column and make sure they are nice and tight.
However, I am wondering about this photo:

You have the thin red wire marked "Generator"- that shouldn't be your generator wire as it appears to come out of the loom from the front of the car, plus it's WAY too thin to carry that current load. (The thick red wire in the upper left of the photo that goes up through the left rear quarter panel is your generator wire.) I'm curious what it is though!
Oh and yes that loose brown wire is your generator ground wire, it should be secured to the chassis with one of the regulator's mounting screws.
_________________
I'm the humblest guy on this board.

1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor

[ashman40]