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halbug Samba Member
Joined: March 09, 2006 Posts: 446 Location: Germany
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Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 2:12 pm Post subject: Cool Transmission |
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Hi folks, I have been playing with the idea of cooling the oil of my Berg-5 transmission and using the cooled oil for some pointed extra lubrikation some time now. Time to make it happen
Buying Cooler and Pump was easy
I couldn't get fittings to fit into the housing at the original openings. Because my little lathe can not turn tapered threads, I bought fittings with have at least the correct M24x1,5 tapered threads and made adapters for M16x1 Banjos
[img]https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1988545.jpg[/img
I think it is ok to have a fitting under the transmission with the Berg cross bar in front of it. Otherwise I would be worried having it as the lowest point of the car... _________________ Stealth Ghia Transformation: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7226044&highlight=#7226044
My Berg5: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=730276&start=0 |
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halbug Samba Member
Joined: March 09, 2006 Posts: 446 Location: Germany
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Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 2:47 pm Post subject: Re: Cool Transmission |
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Based on some Porsche racing transmissions I have seen, I like the idea to return the cooled oil through jets directly onto the gears - at least some of the oil...
To make sure I have constant pressure and therefore even supply to all those points, I designed a distributor block with build-in pressure regulator. Anything past 10-14psi (adjustable with washers) will return directly into the case, through the oil filler hole.
And yes, it is a fuel injection rail profile
Drilling and tapping the case will cost me some nerves for sure To help guide the tap positively towards the gear, I drilled it with a harded bit. A 3mm rod will act as a guide for tapping into the right direction
_________________ Stealth Ghia Transformation: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7226044&highlight=#7226044
My Berg5: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=730276&start=0 |
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Mr. OGPaint Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2010 Posts: 820 Location: Oregon
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bedlamite Samba Member
Joined: September 30, 2004 Posts: 178 Location: WI
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Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:07 pm Post subject: Re: Cool Transmission |
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Filter? |
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oprn Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016 Posts: 12586 Location: Western Canada
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Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:08 pm Post subject: Re: Cool Transmission |
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This is an interesting idea, most likely totally unnecessary or auto makers would have had a version of it in production years ago. You say Porsche used it in race cars? I like to see unique things and ideas and have enjoyed tinkering on the impractical/unnecessary side of reality myself so... I'm following this with interest!
This is not very different from oiling systems I have seen and worked with on industrial machinery before. I have been called upon to tube in these kind of systems from oil pump to lube points on new installations and to troubleshoot and maintain them afterward. |
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Wreck Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2014 Posts: 1209 Location: Brisbane
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halbug Samba Member
Joined: March 09, 2006 Posts: 446 Location: Germany
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Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 2:51 am Post subject: Re: Cool Transmission |
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Thank you all!
I will study the story from gears for sure. Part of my plan is to give the 5th gear and rear upper mainshaft bearing some extra lubrication also...
Filter will be In-Line, but I have to decide which one yet - any recommendations?
I think the conversation does make sense - obviously - otherwise I would not do it
From my own experience and talking to some racers, I know that the Type 1 transmission gets way to hot when paired with a big motor and Autobahn usage
Have a nice Sunday! _________________ Stealth Ghia Transformation: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7226044&highlight=#7226044
My Berg5: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=730276&start=0 |
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madmike Samba Member
Joined: July 11, 2005 Posts: 5291 Location: Atlanta,Michigan
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Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:48 am Post subject: Re: Cool Transmission |
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Heat is an 'automatic transmission' worst enemy.
Standard shift manuals don't need a cooler, It don't get that hot in Germany _________________ 'Black Ice'Drag Buggy 'Turbo'
Rail Buggy 1915 turbo
76 Drag/Street bug 2180cc 'Turbo' 11:85 @113 mph"If I go any faster I'll burn up the Hamster" ,gets 28 mpg. also 10/09/22 11.90 @115 mph
"If I'm ever on Life Support,UNPLUG Me, Then Plug me back In see if that Works" |
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halbug Samba Member
Joined: March 09, 2006 Posts: 446 Location: Germany
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oprn Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016 Posts: 12586 Location: Western Canada
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Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 5:48 am Post subject: Re: Cool Transmission |
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halbug wrote: |
But how do you know for sure a type 1 transmission does not get too damn hot under extended load? |
Just put a temperature gauge on it and take it for a drive! That would be the very first step, then when you are done your changes you will have good solid data on how well it worked.
I really don't think you will find your tranny oil in any distress in a Ghia. I don't know about a Ghia but VW said it takes 40 hp to propel a Beetle at a top speed of 72 mph. I don't care if you have 200 hp on tap, you still will only be using 40 hp of that 200 to go 72 mph.
The only way you will be using more than that is if you are pulling a loaded trailer, driving on a never ending up hill or going 140 mph all day. In other words you will have to increase the load.
But it looks like a fun project, have at it, absolutely no harm can come of it and some learning will be done! |
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halbug Samba Member
Joined: March 09, 2006 Posts: 446 Location: Germany
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Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 6:01 am Post subject: Re: Cool Transmission |
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oprn wrote: |
halbug wrote: |
But how do you know for sure a type 1 transmission does not get too damn hot under extended load? |
Just put a temperature gauge on it and take it for a drive! That would be the very first step, then when you are done your changes you will have good solid data on how well it worked.
I really don't think you will find your tranny oil in any distress. |
I had hoped you have done it to proof your statement to save me some work
I rely on people having done it and their advice is additional cooling. In addition the fifth gear and and main shaft bearing will benefit from the directed oiling. Maybe you are right but at least that weak point is addressed _________________ Stealth Ghia Transformation: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7226044&highlight=#7226044
My Berg5: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=730276&start=0 |
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oprn Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016 Posts: 12586 Location: Western Canada
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Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 6:11 am Post subject: Re: Cool Transmission |
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The Jetta 5 speed gear boxes have the 5th gear on the end, in a separate section of the case really. When they run low on oil the first thing to show stress is the 5th gear needle bearing cage. If your transaxle is set up the same then positive oiling would not be a bad thing.
Or in the case of the Jetta, a closer eye on the tranny oil level... my bad! I saw the drip and assumed it was engine oil! |
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jbbugs Samba Member
Joined: September 16, 2002 Posts: 2150 Location: Behind the wheel
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oprn Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016 Posts: 12586 Location: Western Canada
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Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 6:26 am Post subject: Re: Cool Transmission |
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Hey! Just had a thought - I was wondering how the oil pump would handle cold heavy tranny oil on start up but why not put a temp switch in the tranny and it would only come on when needed. |
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spencerfvee Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004 Posts: 3071
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Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:18 am Post subject: Re: Cool Transmission |
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hi I wonder if the pick up hose .at the bottom of your trans case . would be prone to things in the road .hitting it and pushing the hose off . would you make a guard over the hose .? so this would not happen . also this would be great to cool the oil in the trans. for racing only . but go for it .let every one know how well it works on the street . good luck |
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gears Samba Member
Joined: October 28, 2002 Posts: 4389 Location: Tamarack, Bend, Kailua
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Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:29 am Post subject: Re: Cool Transmission |
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Cooled / filtered oil should be fed primarily to pinion bearing, mainshaft ball bearing, and 4th gear. During Autobahn driving, you can be sure 4th (or 5th) gear is running hot, which over time affects longevity of both the mainshaft ball bearing and the gears needle bearing.
Our early Type 1 Elephant housing had an oil return right over 4th gear & ball bearing:
You can get further ideas (gun-drilled mainshaft, modified pinion bearing etc) from this recent Syncro transaxle build thread:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=725130
Thompson Gun-Drilling has drilled dozens of Porsche and VW mainshafts for us in the past .. _________________ aka Pablo, Geary
9.36 @ 146 in '86 Hot & Sticky
'90 Syncro Westy SVX
'87 Syncro GL 2.5
https://guardtransaxle.com |
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halbug Samba Member
Joined: March 09, 2006 Posts: 446 Location: Germany
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Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:41 am Post subject: Re: Cool Transmission |
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WOW! I love the responses - Thank you
The alternative to picking up the oil from the drain plug location, would have been to convert one of the lower side plate studs to a larger, gun drilled stud. I did not like that too much either. And - as mentioned - I hope the forward transmission mount (as seen on picture above) will protect the banjo.
As for switching the pump, I agree, I will add a temperature switch. As the modification is for additional oiling AND cooling I may switch the pump on at 110F and install a small mechanical thermostate to control the oil temperature. Or switching at 200F without inline-thermostate... not sure yet _________________ Stealth Ghia Transformation: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7226044&highlight=#7226044
My Berg5: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=730276&start=0 |
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halbug Samba Member
Joined: March 09, 2006 Posts: 446 Location: Germany
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Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:46 am Post subject: Re: Cool Transmission |
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gears wrote: |
Cooled / filtered oil should be fed primarily to pinion bearing, mainshaft ball bearing, and 4th gear. During Autobahn driving, you can be sure 4th (or 5th) gear is running hot, which over time affects longevity of both the mainshaft ball bearing and the gears needle bearing.
Our early Type 1 Elephant housing had an oil return right over 4th gear & ball bearing:
You can get further ideas (gun-drilled mainshaft, modified pinion bearing etc) from this recent Syncro transaxle build thread:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=725130
Thompson Gun-Drilling has drilled dozens of Porsche and VW mainshafts for us in the past .. |
Hi gears, great to have you here! And thanks for the confirmation.
I have planned for oil spray onto mainshaft ball bearing, 4th and 5th gear bearings and all mainshaft gears. I will need to investigate ways for pinion bearing... _________________ Stealth Ghia Transformation: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7226044&highlight=#7226044
My Berg5: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=730276&start=0 |
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SBD Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2012 Posts: 3269 Location: SOUTH DAKOTA
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Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:45 am Post subject: Re: Cool Transmission |
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Very interesting! _________________ "Just $99 down and $64 a month for 36 months buys you a brand new Volkswagen Beetle!"
mark tucker wrote: |
I wouldent waste $ or thyme on building a small motor. build it big so it dosent have to work hard.remember it's only as fast as your foot alows it to be unless you build a small turd then it just stinks as it squishes up through your toes when you step on it. |
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halbug Samba Member
Joined: March 09, 2006 Posts: 446 Location: Germany
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