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halbug
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 2:12 pm    Post subject: Cool Transmission Reply with quote

Hi folks, I have been playing with the idea of cooling the oil of my Berg-5 transmission and using the cooled oil for some pointed extra lubrikation some time now. Time to make it happen Laughing

Buying Cooler and Pump was easy Cool
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I couldn't get fittings to fit into the housing at the original openings. Because my little lathe can not turn tapered threads, I bought fittings with have at least the correct M24x1,5 tapered threads and made adapters for M16x1 Banjos
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[img]https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1988545.jpg[/img
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I think it is ok to have a fitting under the transmission with the Berg cross bar in front of it. Otherwise I would be worried having it as the lowest point of the car...
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halbug
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 2:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Cool Transmission Reply with quote

Based on some Porsche racing transmissions I have seen, I like the idea to return the cooled oil through jets directly onto the gears - at least some of the oil...

To make sure I have constant pressure and therefore even supply to all those points, I designed a distributor block with build-in pressure regulator. Anything past 10-14psi (adjustable with washers) will return directly into the case, through the oil filler hole.

And yes, it is a fuel injection rail profile Cool
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Drilling and tapping the case will cost me some nerves for sure Laughing To help guide the tap positively towards the gear, I drilled it with a harded bit. A 3mm rod will act as a guide for tapping into the right direction
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Mr. OGPaint
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Cool Transmission Reply with quote

You have my attention Popcorn Popcorn Popcorn
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Cool Transmission Reply with quote

Filter?
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oprn
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Cool Transmission Reply with quote

This is an interesting idea, most likely totally unnecessary or auto makers would have had a version of it in production years ago. You say Porsche used it in race cars? I like to see unique things and ideas and have enjoyed tinkering on the impractical/unnecessary side of reality myself so... I'm following this with interest!

This is not very different from oiling systems I have seen and worked with on industrial machinery before. I have been called upon to tube in these kind of systems from oil pump to lube points on new installations and to troubleshoot and maintain them afterward.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 2:31 am    Post subject: Re: Cool Transmission Reply with quote

There is a little on oil feed modifications on this thread , it's on a 094 trans by "Gears". but the same principles apply .


https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0
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halbug
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 2:51 am    Post subject: Re: Cool Transmission Reply with quote

Thank you all! Cool

I will study the story from gears for sure. Part of my plan is to give the 5th gear and rear upper mainshaft bearing some extra lubrication also...

Filter will be In-Line, but I have to decide which one yet - any recommendations?

I think the conversation does make sense - obviously - otherwise I would not do it Laughing Laughing

From my own experience and talking to some racers, I know that the Type 1 transmission gets way to hot when paired with a big motor and Autobahn usage Twisted Evil

Have a nice Sunday!
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:48 am    Post subject: Re: Cool Transmission Reply with quote

Heat is an 'automatic transmission' worst enemy.
Standard shift manuals don't need a cooler, Laughing It don't get that hot in Germany Wink Laughing
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halbug
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 5:32 am    Post subject: Re: Cool Transmission Reply with quote

madmike wrote:
Heat is an 'automatic transmission' worst enemy.
Standard shift manuals don't need a cooler, Laughing It don't get that hot in Germany Wink Laughing


Well... hotter every summer Cool unfortunately...

But how do you know for sure a type 1 transmission does not get too damn hot under extended load?

Standard original bug engines don't need additional oil cooling either Wink
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oprn
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 5:48 am    Post subject: Re: Cool Transmission Reply with quote

halbug wrote:
But how do you know for sure a type 1 transmission does not get too damn hot under extended load?

Just put a temperature gauge on it and take it for a drive! Wink That would be the very first step, then when you are done your changes you will have good solid data on how well it worked.

I really don't think you will find your tranny oil in any distress in a Ghia. I don't know about a Ghia but VW said it takes 40 hp to propel a Beetle at a top speed of 72 mph. I don't care if you have 200 hp on tap, you still will only be using 40 hp of that 200 to go 72 mph.

The only way you will be using more than that is if you are pulling a loaded trailer, driving on a never ending up hill or going 140 mph all day. In other words you will have to increase the load.

But it looks like a fun project, have at it, absolutely no harm can come of it and some learning will be done!
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halbug
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 6:01 am    Post subject: Re: Cool Transmission Reply with quote

oprn wrote:
halbug wrote:
But how do you know for sure a type 1 transmission does not get too damn hot under extended load?

Just put a temperature gauge on it and take it for a drive! Wink That would be the very first step, then when you are done your changes you will have good solid data on how well it worked.

I really don't think you will find your tranny oil in any distress.


I had hoped you have done it to proof your statement to save me some work Laughing

I rely on people having done it and their advice is additional cooling. In addition the fifth gear and and main shaft bearing will benefit from the directed oiling. Maybe you are right but at least that weak point is addressed Very Happy
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 6:11 am    Post subject: Re: Cool Transmission Reply with quote

The Jetta 5 speed gear boxes have the 5th gear on the end, in a separate section of the case really. When they run low on oil the first thing to show stress is the 5th gear needle bearing cage. If your transaxle is set up the same then positive oiling would not be a bad thing.

Or in the case of the Jetta, a closer eye on the tranny oil level... my bad! I saw the drip and assumed it was engine oil!
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 6:20 am    Post subject: Re: Cool Transmission Reply with quote

https://patrickmotorsports.com/products/tra-901-oil-clk-pms
The 914ís had some trans cooling issues when racing.
Not sure itís really necessary on a Ghia since all the heat from the engine is behind the trans rather than in front of it.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 6:26 am    Post subject: Re: Cool Transmission Reply with quote

Hey! Just had a thought - I was wondering how the oil pump would handle cold heavy tranny oil on start up but why not put a temp switch in the tranny and it would only come on when needed.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:18 am    Post subject: Re: Cool Transmission Reply with quote

hi I wonder if the pick up hose .at the bottom of your trans case . would be prone to things in the road .hitting it and pushing the hose off . would you make a guard over the hose .? so this would not happen . also this would be great to cool the oil in the trans. for racing only . but go for it .let every one know how well it works on the street . good luck
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:29 am    Post subject: Re: Cool Transmission Reply with quote

Cooled / filtered oil should be fed primarily to pinion bearing, mainshaft ball bearing, and 4th gear. During Autobahn driving, you can be sure 4th (or 5th) gear is running hot, which over time affects longevity of both the mainshaft ball bearing and the gears needle bearing.

Our early Type 1 Elephant housing had an oil return right over 4th gear & ball bearing:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


You can get further ideas (gun-drilled mainshaft, modified pinion bearing etc) from this recent Syncro transaxle build thread:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=725130

Thompson Gun-Drilling has drilled dozens of Porsche and VW mainshafts for us in the past ..
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:41 am    Post subject: Re: Cool Transmission Reply with quote

WOW! I love the responses - Thank you Cool

The alternative to picking up the oil from the drain plug location, would have been to convert one of the lower side plate studs to a larger, gun drilled stud. I did not like that too much either. And - as mentioned - I hope the forward transmission mount (as seen on picture above) will protect the banjo.

As for switching the pump, I agree, I will add a temperature switch. As the modification is for additional oiling AND cooling I may switch the pump on at 110F and install a small mechanical thermostate to control the oil temperature. Or switching at 200F without inline-thermostate... not sure yet
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:46 am    Post subject: Re: Cool Transmission Reply with quote

gears wrote:
Cooled / filtered oil should be fed primarily to pinion bearing, mainshaft ball bearing, and 4th gear. During Autobahn driving, you can be sure 4th (or 5th) gear is running hot, which over time affects longevity of both the mainshaft ball bearing and the gears needle bearing.

Our early Type 1 Elephant housing had an oil return right over 4th gear & ball bearing:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


You can get further ideas (gun-drilled mainshaft, modified pinion bearing etc) from this recent Syncro transaxle build thread:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=725130

Thompson Gun-Drilling has drilled dozens of Porsche and VW mainshafts for us in the past ..


Hi gears, great to have you here! And thanks for the confirmation.

I have planned for oil spray onto mainshaft ball bearing, 4th and 5th gear bearings and all mainshaft gears. I will need to investigate ways for pinion bearing...
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:45 am    Post subject: Re: Cool Transmission Reply with quote

Popcorn Very interesting!
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halbug
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:47 am    Post subject: Re: Cool Transmission Reply with quote

gears wrote:
Cooled / filtered oil should be fed primarily to pinion bearing...

You can get further ideas (gun-drilled mainshaft, modified pinion bearing etc) from this recent Syncro transaxle build thread:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=725130

Thompson Gun-Drilling has drilled dozens of Porsche and VW mainshafts for us in the past ..


My Transmission is open and I checked for extra oiling of tapered roller pinon bearing. I have no idea how Embarassed Isn't this bearing immersed in oil anyhow?

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Thank you
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