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ashman40
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 16673
Location: North Florida, USA
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 Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 8:31 am Post subject: Re: Dissecting the ignition switch electrical (wordy w/ pics) |
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| chookhen wrote: |
| My 71 super's ignition switch decided to stay fully engaged in the switch on position resulting in continual engagement of the starter which on returning to the on position power was cut and engine stopped. |
Sounds like you ignition switch (electrical) has failed. You can try to rebuild it (open up and clean contacts) or buy an aftermarket replacement.
| chookhen wrote: |
| I managed to remove the barrel but switch is hard wired in. |
The wires are soldered to the bottom of the switch up thru the '71 model year, but the switch itself is held into the lock assembly by a single small screw ("2" in pic below).
Once you remove the screw the switch should fall out the bottom of the assembly.
| chookhen wrote: |
Would a solution be to place a momentary switch between key switch and the the wire to the starter with the spade connection so key could be left in tne on position and momentary switch would activate the circuit.
I note the spade connection wire I would be breaking for the switch is not particularly large, would a high ampere switch be sufficient or should a relay be fitted, I would include a fuse in circuit. |
It is a common work around to add a push button momentary switch on the #50 (red/black) starter solenoid wire to provide 12v anytime the button is pressed. The current draw of the starter solenoid is around 15A so the switch needs to be a sizeable push button rated for 20A or more.
I would recommend adding a Hard Start Relay (HSR) near the battery to offload this current load. The load of a Bosch-style HSR's coil is only 0.1A. This reduces the size of the switch needed up front. Even the smallest of switches can manage 0.1A.
I recommend you replace/repair the ignition switch and add an HSR below the rear seat to offload the current from the new/repaired ignition switch.
_________________
AshMan40
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'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road  }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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ashman40
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 16673
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 8:59 am Post subject: |
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| edjose17 wrote: |
| ashman40 wrote: |
| *It is important that the relay ONLY be placed in the wire between the ignition switch and the fuse box. Installing an ignition switched relay somewhere AFTER the fuse box (like the engine compartment) could result in a problem with the engine running ON even AFTER you have turned the ignition switch OFF. |
Can you explain why this happen? I was planning to add a relay under the back seat to provide clean power to black wire going to the coil, but your comment make me think twice about doing it. |
I know this is an older post, but I thought it deserved a reply...
Most people take a high level look at the #15 ignition circuit and see that the ignition switch is the source of 12v+ when the ignition switch is turned to the ON/RUN or START positions. This is plainly clear.
So when the ignition switch is turned to the OFF position it would make sense that the #15 circuit becomes unpowered. This is only true when the engine/charging system is not running. But things are different when the engine is running and the charging system is working...
Take a closer look at the GEN lamp wiring in the speedometer... here is a diagram from Speedy Jim's site that simplifies the wiring:
When you first turn the key to ON/RUN (before starting the engine) the GEN lamp is powered from the fuse box (fuse on the right) and is grounded by the field coil inside the alternator (or VR for generators). This is why the GEN lamp turns ON before the engine is started.
Once the engine is running and the charging system is functional the alternator/generator produces 12v+ out of the #61/D+ terminal. With 12v+ coming from both directions the GEN lamp turns OFF. It turns OFF not from a lack of voltage but because there is balance of current flow and no electrical current is flowing thru the lamp, so it turns OFF. This is a key point... voltage coming out the D+/#61 terminal of the charging system is trying to flow from the charging system backwards into the #15 fused circuit but it is being stopped by the voltage coming from the ignition switch/fuse box.
** Placing a relay anywhere other than on the wire coming from the ignition switch means the relay is powered by the #15 circuit and not specifically from the ignition switch. As long as there is voltage on the #15 circuit it will power the relay even when the ignition switch is turned OFF.
For a running engine...
At the moment the ignition switch is turned OFF the voltage coming from the ignition switch is instantly stopped. The GEN lamp no longer has voltage coming from the fuse box.
The momentum of the engine means the engine is still rotating at the moment the ignition switch is turned OFF so the charging system is still producing some voltage/current even when the ignition has stopped. The positive current flow on the #61 circuit is now coming from the #61/D+ on the alternator/VR to the GEN lamp and into the #15 circuit.
The GEN lamp is highly restrictive so the current/voltage provided will be low (only 2W of power passes thru the bulb). Voltage readings on the #15 circuit at the rear seat or engine compartment will be well below 10v (I measured 6v at the engine compartment). Normally, this is insufficient to power the ignition coil and the coil would stop firing a spark which shuts the engine OFF.
But... if you have a Bosch-style SPST/SPDT relay powering the ignition coil #15 terminal circuit from a constant 12v+ source (battery post) the coil runs off the constant 12v source and not the ignition switch. As long as the ignition switch provides enough voltage to keep the relay powered the ignition coil sees full battery voltage.
The Bosch-style relay will remain energized with as little as 6.0v (5.5v in some cases). So the current passing thru the GEN lamp backward into the #15 circuit is enough to keep this ignition relay energized which keeps the ignition coil fully powered (12v) which keeps the engine running. Even with the ignition switch turned OFF! The charging system output backward over the #61 wire into the #15 circuit is enough to keep the ignition coil ON... powered by the relay triggered from the GEN lamp!
To "fix" this, a 1A diode is added to the GEN lamp to limit current flow to one direction (fuse box to alternator). This will allow the GEN lamp to work mostly normally, but prevents the GEN lamp from powering the #15 circuit. The downside of this is the GEN lamp will no longer glow when the charging system is over-charging (or the battery is weak, something the stock circuit does.
_________________
AshMan40
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'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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chookhen
Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2021
Posts: 57
Location: Queensland Australia
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| Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 2:44 pm Post subject: Re: Dissecting the ignition switch electrical (wordy w/ pics) |
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Thank you Ashman, I will take your advice.
Cheers, chookhen. |
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veedub19-68
Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2017
Posts: 2
Location: VIC
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| Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:32 pm Post subject: Re: Dissecting the ignition switch electrical (wordy w/ pics) |
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| ashman40 wrote: |
| A-Wild wrote: |
| Yeah it's a 71 Vert. ... Not having much luck finding that piece on line. Any ideas? |
You need the entire ignition switch (electrical) along with the pigtail of wires.
http://www.wolfsburgwest.com/cart/DetailsList.cfm?ID=111905865F
An option that I was considering before I got rid of my Beetle.... using a '72 ignition switch:
And adding push on female spades to the ends of the existing wires. This save the trouble of running wires and makes use of a less expensive ignition switch ($13 vs. $35). You'll want to individually heat shrink tube the ends of the non-insulated crimp on terminals (you won't have the space to use the cheap insulated terminals). If you don't have access to these crimp on terminals then just go with the correct '71 ignition switch.
My suggestion is to add a HSR when installing an aftermarket ignition switch. This will extend the life of your new ignition switch. |
Can anyone please confirm if the later model (plastic with terminals) is able to replace a 68 ignition switch (metal body crimped wires). Will it fit in the column and ignition housing? THANKS!!!! |
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ashman40
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 16673
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:06 am Post subject: Re: Dissecting the ignition switch electrical (wordy w/ pics) |
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| veedub19-68 wrote: |
| Can anyone please confirm if the later model (plastic with terminals) is able to replace a 68 ignition switch (metal body crimped wires). Will it fit in the column and ignition housing? THANKS!!!! |
Give this thread a read:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9459528
It has pics of the inside end of the '68-'70 lock assembly and the end of the plastic '71 ignition switch electrical (the OP seems to have received the wrong part). You can see the "key opening" in the end of the electrical portion didn't match the "key" inside the lock assembly. Later in the thread you can see the metal cased '68-'70 electrical portion with a different shaped opening for the "key" to fit into. So I'm thinking the '72 electrical will not fit well either.
_________________
AshMan40
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'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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veedub19-68
Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2017
Posts: 2
Location: VIC
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| Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:53 pm Post subject: Re: Dissecting the ignition switch electrical (wordy w/ pics) |
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| ashman40 wrote: |
| veedub19-68 wrote: |
| Can anyone please confirm if the later model (plastic with terminals) is able to replace a 68 ignition switch (metal body crimped wires). Will it fit in the column and ignition housing? THANKS!!!! |
Give this thread a read:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9459528
It has pics of the inside end of the '68-'70 lock assembly and the end of the plastic '71 ignition switch electrical (the OP seems to have received the wrong part). You can see the "key opening" in the end of the electrical portion didn't match the "key" inside the lock assembly. Later in the thread you can see the metal cased '68-'70 electrical portion with a different shaped opening for the "key" to fit into. So I'm thinking the '72 electrical will not fit well either. |
Bugger. I keep having my switches fail. The last failed the same day it was installed. I spoke to a local supplier and they said it is very common and there isn't a reliable source available for 68-70
Must be bad contacts inside or poor spring pressure. If I push the wires into the casing, which will Bring the contacts to the slider, I will get my ignition lights, but if I pull the wires I will loose them. |
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ashman40
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 16673
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:30 am Post subject: Re: Dissecting the ignition switch electrical (wordy w/ pics) |
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I've not opened up a '68-'70 aftermarket ignition switch, but if it was anything like my aftermarket '71 switch the electrical contact areas inside the switch are small. This means they will burn quickly with use.
I recommend you add a Bosch-type SPST/SPDT relay to the #15 circuit immediately after the ignition switch (between switch and fuse box) and a Hard Start Relay to the #50 circuit (under the rear seat is okay). This will reduce the current flow thru the ignition switch contacts to just 50~100mA (current needed to energize the Bosch relay). That will extend the lifespan of the (poor) ignition switch contacts by minimizing the current flow thru the contacts. Add a resistor/capacitor to the relay and your will get even more lifespan.
This only helps if the internal contacts are getting burnt. Adding relays won't help if the mechanicals of the switch are breaking.
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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edge540T
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Joined: November 01, 2020
Posts: 12
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2022 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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| ashman40 wrote: |
Here are the rotating metal pieces:
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Thanks cos your work save my switch, have been a pain in the as, the Y piece works better if it is a little flattened, even a bit bend upwards on the key positions pics, for the not contact part, (I mean the click position part of the Y, the contacts part can't be touched)
work for me after some attempts, the problem was intermitent loose contact for coil, idot lights.... seems consistent till now, strangely no problem with start position. |
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Seanlithman
Samba Member
Joined: April 22, 2013
Posts: 73
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| Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2022 2:43 am Post subject: Re: Dissecting the ignition switch electrical (wordy w/ pics) |
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| bnam wrote: |
The original style one could come loose at the crimps like this on my car
Hi thanks for the pictures I took. Apart my switch when I took the bottom section off a small ball barking jumped out I found it but where does it sit ?
Help please
Cleaned and recrimped:
Working well for over a year now. |
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J-Gaz.
Samba Member
Joined: November 19, 2007
Posts: 748
Location: 253 Then, Now 206.
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| Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2023 9:38 am Post subject: Re: Dissecting the ignition switch electrical (wordy w/ pics) |
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I've got a 70 Beetle, and the metal housing, I'm going to be doing this later this month. Although as stated above, the housing could have come loose, I have already purchased a new nos part.
My question is, does anyone have pictures of where the pigtails connect. I don't want to do as Cusser Says, and get lazy and just crimp the wires to the old wires under the dash.
Appreciate it.
Probably obvious when in the car, but I've found that reference pictures are always helpful.
Appreciate it.
| Cusser wrote: |
... DON'T get lazy and just crimp the wires to the old wires under the dash !!! FEED the new wires through the grommet and attach to the original male terminals/connectors.
The 1971 part is a one-year for beetles. |
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1970 Beetle | Basically Stock 1600 SP |
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Cusser
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Joined: October 02, 2006
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Location: Hot Arizona
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ashman40
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 16673
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2023 11:34 am Post subject: Re: Dissecting the ignition switch electrical (wordy w/ pics) |
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| J-Gaz. wrote: |
| I've got a 70 Beetle, and the metal housing... My question is, does anyone have pictures of where the pigtails connect. |
If you have the OE switch it should not be too difficult.
From under the steering column, look up and you can see all the wiring from the steering column passes thru a single large grommet into the trunk.
Look from the trunk side and find where the wires come thru. In the below pic it is the black harness of wires coming thru the grommet at the bottom left of the pic.
The above pic is for a later Beetle. Your fuse box will look different.
There should only be two harnesses passing thru the hole. One for the turn signal wires, one for the ignition switch wires. It may look like a single harness or may be taped/wrapped together. The ignition switch wires will have the thick red, red/black and black wires. Check the wire colors at the bottom of the ignition switch. Trace these wires after they enter the trunk to their first junction and disconnect them.
One (black) will run to the fuse box.
One (red) will run to the headlight switch.
One (red/black) will run to a junction with a solid red(?) wire that runs to the starter solenoid so enters the main harness that runs to the rear of the car.
There may be a grey wire that runs to the door buzzer relay (if you have one).
Keep note where each wire was connected as the new wires will need to connect in place of the old ones. Did I miss any wires coming off the switch? Just trace all the wires coming from the ignition switch and disconnect them.
Once they are all disconnected, push the harness/wires back thru the hole so they all hang from the steering column. You may not be able to fully pull the wires from under the dash. You may need to push the wires one at a time from the trunk side so they slide thru the grommet past the turn signal switch harness which should remain in place. Just separate the ignition switch wires and pull then thru the hole in the dash/trunk.
_________________
AshMan40
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'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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