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vanis13
Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2010
Posts: 4451
Location: ABQ NM USA.... Except when not
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 Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2021 5:39 pm Post subject: How to make clutch disengage higher up? |
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Clutch releases/engages close to floor. Want to have it release higher up.
Replaced clutch, master and slave cylinder and bled.
Had tranny rebuilt and wonder if clutch lever is one notch off.... Is that lever indexed or can I move/rotate it on the shaft?
How much lever travel do you guys get on the outside of the lever?
Could it a worn clutch pedal pivot point,? I moved things around when doing the master and things seemed tight.
Any thoughts appreciated.
Thx
Andy
_________________
83.5 Westy with Subaru 2.5, 4 spd manual, center seat, COLD A/C on 134a!, Winter camp heated with an Espar B4 gasoline furnace
www.SuperVanagon.com - some stuff I make |
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dobryan
Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2006
Posts: 17171
Location: Brookeville, MD
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candyman
Samba Trout Slayer
Joined: December 20, 2003
Posts: 2717
Location: Missoula MT
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| Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2021 6:16 pm Post subject: Re: How to make clutch disengage higher up? |
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| Not sure if this will help your situation or not but there is a thread on how to adjust the clutch pedal (not the pedal per se, but the adjusting pin behind it). I dont have it handy. Its a real PITA but totally doable. Years ago i replaced my master cylinder and I had to make the adjustment as when my fluid got hot the clutch would slip. Not enough play, had to back it out. Anyways search clutch pedal play and you should find it |
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sanchius 
Samba Member
Joined: May 03, 2007
Posts: 1573
Location: IN
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dobryan
Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2006
Posts: 17171
Location: Brookeville, MD
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 10667
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2021 10:03 pm Post subject: Re: How to make clutch disengage higher up? |
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| dobryan wrote: |
| How much freeplay in your pedal?. |
Yes.
Pull up/down on the pedal and measure it.
It gets pretty important to fix the clevis pin when there’s 1 inch of pedal slop.
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, NEW oil rings (!) 2Peloquins, 3knobs, SyncroShop pressure-oiled pinion-bearing & GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox.
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered original gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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vanis13
Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2010
Posts: 4451
Location: ABQ NM USA.... Except when not
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| Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2021 7:38 pm Post subject: Re: How to make clutch disengage higher up? |
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In short - Read a bunch of the threads on the clevis pins and even found the post about how to adjust the clutch master cylinder rod!
I already have the Slave additional brace.
Checked my free play and it showed 1/4 movement (maybe clevis pin? I thought)
The post that REALLY made a difference was one that said you could make enough of an adjustment by moving the MC up/down just within the existing mounting holes (there was one post where the user actually elongated the holes)
Just moving the MC to the top of the existing holes removed almost all of my free play and now the clutch engages about 2" off the floor and release about 2" from top.
Would still like it a little higher but this will do as I'm on my trip. Eventually I'll check the clevis pin but some posts with 200+K mile vans with perfect pins could mean mine is just fine.
Also may re-bleed just to see what happens.
The fact that I could push up the clutch arm at the tranny still makes me wonder if I could rotate it a notch and use more of the slave travel.
_________________
83.5 Westy with Subaru 2.5, 4 spd manual, center seat, COLD A/C on 134a!, Winter camp heated with an Espar B4 gasoline furnace
www.SuperVanagon.com - some stuff I make |
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vanis13
Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2010
Posts: 4451
Location: ABQ NM USA.... Except when not
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 10667
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2021 12:41 am Post subject: Re: How to make clutch disengage higher up? |
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| vanis13 wrote: |
| Eventually I'll check the clevis pin but some posts with 200+K mile vans with perfect pins could mean mine is just fine. |
1/4" is nothing, you don't need to do anything.
But to ensure it stops wearing,.....
If you get back in there, maybe remove your master cylnder bolts etc for a little wiggle room and and pack grease into the clevis pivot.
You can just barely get a finger up there.
If you get any grease in there the wear will stop, and you won't have to deal with it for a long time.
Maybe around year 2050. 
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, NEW oil rings (!) 2Peloquins, 3knobs, SyncroShop pressure-oiled pinion-bearing & GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox.
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered original gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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Zeitgeist 13
Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2009
Posts: 12168
Location: Port Manteau
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| Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2021 12:53 am Post subject: Re: How to make clutch disengage higher up? |
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Wow, I'm still processing the how/why of installing a human finger up there resolves much of anything. But, I'm open to learning. Does it just stick there with the friction from the grease?
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'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik? |
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bobbyblack
Samba Member
Joined: May 21, 2015
Posts: 4624
Location: United States, Iowa
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| Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2021 9:55 am Post subject: Re: How to make clutch disengage higher up? |
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I've reached up from below likely 10 times trying to find that clevis. Dash not yet taken out. I simply cant seem to get my fingers on the location, and thus I don't know if mine is lubed or not. I have come to understand that some were lubed at the production line, and some weren't, ant that is the difference with folks who have gotten 200K+ ant those who have had to replace or otherwise restore them.
Any advice with finding this without taking the dash out?
Thanks
-bobby
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'87 Westy 'Flossie','86 Westy 'R1','86 tintop GL - Subi2.2 'J2','83.5 stock tintop L 'ZoomBus','74 Karmann Ghia, '63 Notch |
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 10667
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2021 10:16 am Post subject: Re: How to make clutch disengage higher up? |
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Bobby did you try unbolting the master cylinder?
(Not disconnecting the hard line).
I had a complete clutch/brake pedal cluster “out-of-van” —-that I took the pic of.
No way to take that pic under the dash.
Note the Van front was raised when I was making the suggestion of adding grease “topically”. (Pack it in, wiggle the clevis etc, you know the drill).
Wouldn’t hurt to raise the van higher.
Like find a real high street curb or park by a retaining wall.
Or be a pro and have a “lift” that you can adjust the height above ground.
Maybe even a floor jack. (but block it!!)
I can’t remember what made me think this was possible “on van”.
But at the time I made that pic it seemed feasible, ‘cuz I was well-versed in contortionism.
(I had just removed the clutch pedal in a matter of hours!)
And was seeking to inform Samba members of a way to avoid the task.
I recall the motivation, but not the details.
Y’all shouldda jumped on it while that finger was on task!
Now it’s just kinda pokin’ around where the sun don’t shine.
Like Zeitgeist, you know. (...in a parallel rectiverse.)
Heres the thread: Clutch pedal replacement in 1/2 hour! (Pics)
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, NEW oil rings (!) 2Peloquins, 3knobs, SyncroShop pressure-oiled pinion-bearing & GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox.
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered original gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb
Last edited by Sodo on Fri Jan 29, 2021 1:33 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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bobbyblack
Samba Member
Joined: May 21, 2015
Posts: 4624
Location: United States, Iowa
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| Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2021 12:21 pm Post subject: Re: How to make clutch disengage higher up? |
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Thanks, yes that thread was one I have read and re-read and watched as each new post has been dribbling in on it for quite some time. Thus, me poking my finger up there too...
I know I should just get over my anxiety and get my dash out soon, as I now have something like 4 tasks I've been putting off... Mostly just lazy, but dread does creep in concerning the blue ribbon, connector, etc. But I do need to open up the blower and get it cleaned out, and add the second Vanistan flapper. That alone should get me going, and then the other stuff will just be frosting on the cake.
Cheers!
_________________
'87 Westy 'Flossie','86 Westy 'R1','86 tintop GL - Subi2.2 'J2','83.5 stock tintop L 'ZoomBus','74 Karmann Ghia, '63 Notch |
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Nuthin2It
Samba Member
Joined: December 31, 2011
Posts: 313
Location: Marietta, GA
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| Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2021 8:05 am Post subject: Re: How to make clutch disengage higher up? |
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Greg Blachon did a Boxeer conversion on my van last summer. It's taking a while to learn to shift smoothly, not only because of all that torque, but also because I have to push the clutch all the way to the floor to get it in gear. Greg says it's because of the stage 2 clutch. It seems like something could be done, though.
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1985 Westfalia 15 degree EA288 Boxeer |
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 10667
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2021 10:01 am Post subject: Re: How to make clutch disengage higher up? |
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| Nuthin2It wrote: |
It's taking a while to learn to shift smoothly, not only because of all that torque, but also because I have to push the clutch all the way to the floor to get it in gear. Greg says it's because of the stage 2 clutch. It seems like something could be done, though.
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All that torque has nothing to do with shifting smoothly, (perhaps not right away).
But diesels and gas engines are shifted at different RPMs, and have different spin-down, so you have to adjust your style to the engine type.
Plus there are often changes between different transaxle oils.
Often people have terribly contaminated oil in their trans, and due to the contamination, synchros grip their cones better and the gears shift 'easier.'
Then they change the oil to something slippery and think they broke something 'cuz now it's hard to shift with slippery oil in the gearbox.
Its very common to conflate "easy shifting" with "good gearbox health", but there is actually an inverse relationship.
Where you enjoy the shifting, but it's wearing out faster.
But it doesn't wear out "right away".
Wild guessing here, but at time of engine conversion, it's possible that three things changed:
1) contamination dumped out (less synchro grip).
2) a new/fresh oil type that's "slipperier" thus more (slightly) protective against the increased torque
3) engine rpm shift points have changed.
....such that you have to change shift style a little to align with the new hardware.
For your van's next life with an 'overdriven transaxle' you're now in a position to decide if you want it to 'shift well' or 'last long'.
Prob better to re-learn shifting with "slippery oil".
Did Mr. Blachon mention increased transaxle attention and maintenance?
Most engine conversion guys do not address the drivetrain condition or capacity (as if it's irrelevant). Some transaxles are kinda 'old', with replacement parts no longer available (more syncro than 2wd).
First things first with the clutch.
This has more to do with pressing the clutch to the floor, and difficulty in shifting too.
Have you re-bled your clutch line?
It doesn't make much sense, but often you have to bleed it one time after assembly.
Is that something you can DIY?
There are lots of good posts, but if any confusion write back and someone will help you find a good post.
I've seen several where good technique is all in one step-by-step post.
There's another consideration with your 'shift clutch fork' but try bleeding first.
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, NEW oil rings (!) 2Peloquins, 3knobs, SyncroShop pressure-oiled pinion-bearing & GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox.
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered original gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb
Last edited by Sodo on Sun Jan 31, 2021 9:15 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Nuthin2It
Samba Member
Joined: December 31, 2011
Posts: 313
Location: Marietta, GA
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| Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2021 8:22 am Post subject: Re: How to make clutch disengage higher up? |
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Sodo: When I mentioned it was harder to shift smoothly I meant that a little mistake in coordination of the clutch and accelerator pedals makes the van jump forward. Yes, I said "jump forward."
Thanks for the suggestion to re-bleed the clutch. Greg replaced my old slave cylinder because mine was leaking. I have a Motive brake bleeder so I can do it.
I had the transaxle rebuilt for the conversion. It had 300,000 miles on it with no repairs, so I figured it was time. This is what was done:
.758 Guard Transaxle Heavy Duty F-1 Gear
Gt Gear Set 1.143 3Rd
091 2-Spiders & Sidegears Kit
Swepco 201 Gear Lube 80W-90 1 Gal
Oil Splash Plates
094 Front Mainshaft Bearing, Fag
2Wd 094 Vanagon Mainshaft Bearing Thrust Plate, Hardened.
Weddle Racing 094 3-4 Slider Hub
094 1-2 Slider Hub, New
Selector Shaft Bushing For Vw 094 Trans
Synchro Catch Key, New (091 3Rd-4Th; 094 1St-2Nd & 3Rd-4Th)
35X40Mm Caged Needle Bearing
35X40X27Mm Split Cage Needle Bearing, Steel Cage
091 Diff Bearing, Skf Brand (With Correct 3Mm Radius Required
Plastic Sidescrew Lock, 69+ Vw Bus & Vanagon
094 Front Pinion Brg & Race (Goes In Gc Hsg), New
Early Stlye Rear Mainshaft Bearing With Set Screw Hole, Vw
Gasket For 094 Sel Shaft Cover
Input Shaft Seal (Sabo)
Vw 094 Selector Shaft Seal, With External Garter Spring
091 Final Drive Seal, 15Mm Wide (Nak)
Rubber Plug For T2 Final Drive Flange
Guide/Ball Sleeve For Vw 094 Trans
O-Ring For T2 Sidescrew Adjuster
Prong Style Mainshaft Circlip For 094 Vanagon, Genuine Vw
094 C-Style Circlip
T2 Fd Flange Circlip
Rebuild Case Bore Sleeve
Pinion Bearing, Late ('70+ T1, '69+ T2 & Vanagon)
As you can see Swepco 201 was used. I've changed the transaxle fluid several times using Swepco, so that shouldn't be a factor.
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1985 Westfalia 15 degree EA288 Boxeer |
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 10667
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2021 9:22 am Post subject: Re: How to make clutch disengage higher up? |
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OK same lubricant.
There are lots of details!!
That looks like a nice rebuild.
Wise getting the old feller ready before rousting him for the marathon.
300k suggests that somebody maintained this trans better than "others".👍🏽👍🏽
| Nuthin2It wrote: |
| I have a Motive brake bleeder so I can do it. |
And you know how to bleed a clutch👍🏽.
It's simpler to offer help with some idea what a members DIY capabilities are.
OK with that...
Rather than hooking up a tool I'd just try the one-pump bleed first.
The assumption is that one little bubble has arrived at the top, right at the slave.
Where you have someone hold the pedal at the floor and you just let pressure out at the slave, then close it.
I like to open it slowly, to SEE if a bubble comes out with the spurt.
Or put a clear tube on the bleeder.
I like to __KNOW__ if there was an air bubble because if it doesn't solve the problem you have just a little more information now.
But you can simply let it squirt.
I've done this solo using a stick jammed between the clutch pedal and the driver's seat.
Maybe 2 times.
The quickie 5 minute attempt.
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, NEW oil rings (!) 2Peloquins, 3knobs, SyncroShop pressure-oiled pinion-bearing & GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox.
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered original gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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connorsvw2
Samba Member
Joined: August 16, 2008
Posts: 360
Location: Denver, CO
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| Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2021 10:45 am Post subject: Re: How to make clutch disengage higher up? |
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I suspect there may be issues with your new hydraulic parts. Recently lost my clutch slave on a road trip and ordered a new unit from OReilly auto parts. Fit fine but clutch wouldn't disengage, at all and unable to shift, even after power bleeding at a shop. Clutch pedal pressure was suddenly much lighter as well. I wondered if there was a difference in the bore diameters of the slaves and this turned out to be true. I needed a longer push rod than the OEM which was the same as supplied with the OReilly unit, so made a spacer using a greased and slightly bored-out acorn nut between the piston and the rod which has worked great. Later replaced the clutch master (and all my hydraulucs) with new OEM and the pedal feel has subtly changed again to a bit heavier feel. So I guess my point is that combinations of parts with subtly different piston bores may notably affect clutch throw and travel.
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Jake de Villiers
Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2007
Posts: 5931
Location: Tsawwassen, BC
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| Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2021 12:20 pm Post subject: Re: How to make clutch disengage higher up? |
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There are two lengths of pushrod commonly available for Vanagon clutch slave cylinders. I also found this out the hard way - and ran a 10mm (?) socket as a spacer for quite a while, until it popped out on the way to work one morning... GRRR
I now have the longer rodded (!!) FTE (I think) slave and it is good.
If you search for clutch slave you'll find all the relevant info.
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