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Starting Issue: Running out of fuel aftermath 83.5 Vanagon 1.9L
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MarkWard
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 9:45 am    Post subject: Re: Starting Issue: Running out of fuel aftermath 83.5 Vanagon 1.9L Reply with quote

Do you have an assistant? In a pinch with everything hooked back up, hold a long screw driver or even a piece of tube against any injector and your ear while your assistant cranks the engine. You should hear the injector clicking. No click, no start.

I'm assuming you don't have a "noid" light to electrically test the injector harness connector. Thats why I suggest the listening method. If they click, that rules out a lot.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 10:13 am    Post subject: Re: Starting Issue: Running out of fuel aftermath 83.5 Vanagon 1.9L Reply with quote

Abscate wrote:
Running out of fuel may or may not have been causal but it is irrelevant to troubleshooting. Get that out of the way of the grey matter

Post hoc ergo propter hoc, which translates as your proctologist put his ego in the mail and it is more fun to visit him than fix your Van Bus


Witty banter mate, haha but only slightly helpful hey.


Good shout on using water bottle in the future to check for spray, I thought you meant soak in water bottles.

Tossing a quart of 2 cycle oil into the tank sounds dodgy, but I do have that laying around here, but I'll avoid that for now. Towing down the road doesn't sound logical but oddly it does after sleeping on it.

As for spray in the video, wasn't sure if it is visual in cold weather, but thanks for letting me know that isn't the case and i could have burned my van up ha water bottles for the test next time.

Going to wait until proper carb cleaner arrives or the new injectors. Pump is wired correctly and flowing. Spark seems good but maybe the cold is dampering it? Where is the ideal location to spray starter fluid? Tried starter fluid in the hose after the air box and no luck. Crank and spray at the same time? Or I could just wait for injectors to be spraying properly first. Think my multimeter hit the dust by dropping it in the snow yesterday whlist testing ecu pins, but will double check injector harness voltage when I can sort the multimeter

Cheers and thanks for all the advices
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 10:30 am    Post subject: Re: Starting Issue: Running out of fuel aftermath 83.5 Vanagon 1.9L Reply with quote

To check injector pulse you need a noid or an LED test light.

I really don't think it is injectors.

If dirty they tend to just piss all if the time, not plug up completely.

You need to verify fuel from the pump.

Fast dirty way is disconnect the fuel hose after fuel filter which should be after the fuel pump and do a quick crank. It should come spewing out.

I'll call you after lunch.

Dave
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 10:38 am    Post subject: Re: Starting Issue: Running out of fuel aftermath 83.5 Vanagon 1.9L Reply with quote

Are you for sure you ran out of fuel originally? I think it's human nature to not run the tank empty. My gauge near the bottom floats up and down a 1/4 tank. Its very difficult to trust at the bottom. It actually drives me insane. So, I always fill up and reset the odometer. MPG is a better measure.

It's possible, you ran it low on fuel and coincidentally the engine lost power and quit.

You've thrown so many parts at it, it's hard to know what really happened. You could have accidentally knocked something loose that's hiding the original problem.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 11:11 am    Post subject: Re: Starting Issue: Running out of fuel aftermath 83.5 Vanagon 1.9L Reply with quote

briways wrote:
Abscate wrote:
Running out of fuel may or may not have been causal but it is irrelevant to troubleshooting. Get that out of the way of the grey matter

Post hoc ergo propter hoc, which translates as your proctologist put his ego in the mail and it is more fun to visit him than fix your Van Bus


Witty banter mate, haha but only slightly helpful hey.


Good shout on using water bottle in the future to check for spray, I thought you meant soak in water bottles.

Tossing a quart of 2 cycle oil into the tank sounds dodgy, but I do have that laying around here, but I'll avoid that for now. Towing down the road doesn't sound logical but oddly it does after sleeping on it.

As for spray in the video, wasn't sure if it is visual in cold weather, but thanks for letting me know that isn't the case and i could have burned my van up ha water bottles for the test next time.

Going to wait until proper carb cleaner arrives or the new injectors. Pump is wired correctly and flowing. Spark seems good but maybe the cold is dampering it? Where is the ideal location to spray starter fluid? Tried starter fluid in the hose after the air box and no luck. Crank and spray at the same time? Or I could just wait for injectors to be spraying properly first. Think my multimeter hit the dust by dropping it in the snow yesterday whlist testing ecu pins, but will double check injector harness voltage when I can sort the multimeter

Cheers and thanks for all the advices


A 3 second spray into the snorkel or any hose leading into it. If you donít get some ignition action, you have an ignition issue , on top of a potential fuel issue.

You have several minutes after spraying to try the ignition. Any ether charge near a spark will go boom, in a good way
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 11:42 am    Post subject: Re: Starting Issue: Running out of fuel aftermath 83.5 Vanagon 1.9L Reply with quote

MarkWard wrote:
Are you for sure you ran out of fuel originally? I think it's human nature to not run the tank empty. My gauge near the bottom floats up and down a 1/4 tank. Its very difficult to trust at the bottom. It actually drives me insane. So, I always fill up and reset the odometer. MPG is a better measure.

It's possible, you ran it low on fuel and coincidentally the engine lost power and quit.

You've thrown so many parts at it, it's hard to know what really happened. You could have accidentally knocked something loose that's hiding the original problem.


I was hitting some hills and near the Tennessee/Kentucky border, and I never run out of gas, but wasn't expecting that amount of hills and the exit I drove off of to desperately get fuel, all the petrol stations were closed as it was covid/past midnight. Allstate roadside brought two gallons of fuel and i barely made it to the next station. I've always had starting issues in the cold where it seems it isn't getting fuel, so maybe the injectors or a bad fuel line near the alternator tightens up creating less flow? I used to use a switch on the ground side for the fuel pump to turn it off when this would happen and it would start, then I would run back over to turn it back on. Hoping the new fuel pressure regulator solved that issue. Fuel lines aren't that old, less than 3 years.

Will recheck the pumps flow after the filter and toss some starter fluid in her again.

Did notice some wires/relay on the passenger rear wheel side by the gowesty transaxle i tossed in 2 years ago, above the inner cv joint seems to be very covered in oil/small radiator hose leak I had. Wish I had a multimeter to test them.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 11:51 am    Post subject: Re: Starting Issue: Running out of fuel aftermath 83.5 Vanagon 1.9L Reply with quote

So you ran it low? After you got a rescue 2 gallons, the van began running poorly? It was also the middle of the night?

Smells fishy. When you run the tank dry, you are done. When you run the tank low, the fuel does get aerated.

Iím thinking you got 2 gallons of who knows what. Iím also thinking youíve added a problem accidentally that is hiding the original problem.

Canít imagine being broken down in pa dead winter. I left the shop early. My hands in my office were freezing. I think itís 65 F.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 12:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Starting Issue: Running out of fuel aftermath 83.5 Vanagon 1.9L Reply with quote

Not
Quote:
Running out of fuel may or may not have been causal but it is irrelevant to troubleshooting.


Added the Ďnotíí

Very Happy

Let us know how that starter fluid test goes.[/b]
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 12:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Starting Issue: Running out of fuel aftermath 83.5 Vanagon 1.9L Reply with quote

Your running out of fuel may have accentuated the problems that ethanol laced fuel is known to cause, both your injectors and valve stems may be sticky. I have found that adding a quart of 2-cycle oil or synthetic motor oil to a full tank of gas can get you back on the road in this case, and may or may not make for a lasting fix.[/quote]


Why is this an option? I don't know why you'd add 2-cycle to the gas tank. Please educate me.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 1:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Starting Issue: Running out of fuel aftermath 83.5 Vanagon 1.9L Reply with quote

briways wrote:
As for spray in the video, wasn't sure if it is visual in cold weather, but thanks for letting me know that isn't the case and i could have burned my van up ha water bottles for the test next time.


It's very noticeable. They are mini squirt guns. A few seconds of cranking should cover the bottom of a water bottle with fuel. You can see here the difference between a clogged (diesel, but it's the same concept) injector and a good working injector.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


This picture is why I am hesitant to believe the injectors are your issue. It's pretty rare for injectors to get 100% clogged and for both to get clogged 100% at the same time.

You can verify that the fuel pump is getting to the fuel rails by putting a fuel line on the T and then into a water bottle and cranking. This should DUMP fuel in there. Or use a gauge if you have one, like you're planning to do. It really is better to do all this with an assistant.

I think either fuel isn't getting to the injectors (less likely) or the injectors aren't firing (more likely.)
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 1:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Starting Issue: Running out of fuel aftermath 83.5 Vanagon 1.9L Reply with quote

I talked to him, I told him I find it of concern that zero fuel came out of those injectors.
When injectors fail, they rarely put out zero fuel, they leak, they piss, they spray partially but zero fuel? No.

I asked where he verified spark?
He said coil to cap wire.

I asked him to pull a wire off a plug, insert a small screwdriver in the plug connector and hold to ground, see if the distributor is distributing.

I asked about fuel?
Do you have pressure?
I mentioned pulling off a hose and seeing if it squirts out.

He has a fuel gauge arriving tomorrow.
He is stranded, but is visiting a friend so he isn't out in the cold snow but the Van is.

I suggested he hold off on installing new injectors until some basics are verified. He can always return them.

Worst case, I'm two hours South........ we will get him back to Utah.
Though my experience is with the 2.1 ..... a different animal from the 1.9ís.


Dave
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 3:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Starting Issue: Running out of fuel aftermath 83.5 Vanagon 1.9L Reply with quote

are the plugs fouled with raw fuel? if they are wet...

did you replace all these parts after you ran out of gas?

MarkWard wrote:
My gauge near the bottom floats up and down a 1/4 tank. Its very difficult to trust at the bottom. It actually drives me insane.


don't they all do this? if not, what is the trick - i replaced the tank and sender and i'm still watching the "magic needle" show.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 3:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Starting Issue: Running out of fuel aftermath 83.5 Vanagon 1.9L Reply with quote

Yes, they all float some. Technically as long as the needle is floating, thereís still some fuel in there.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 10:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Starting Issue: Running out of fuel aftermath 83.5 Vanagon 1.9L Reply with quote

Update:

After retesting my spark, I didn't have one today. I replaced the coil ignition, replaced/cleaned ground from under coil ignition to left engine bolt and changed back to my previous middle distribution plug.

After crawling under the van to look over the fuel lines for kinks or broken wires, I discovered this mess:


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.





Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Then after checking the right side fuel line that was under the alternator. I discovered that the bracket I bought last summer from a known company had broke, probably why my belt became loose, but I also never drilled out and fix the knobs that are supposed help support the alternator bracket: See below. The fuel line could have been kinked by the weight of the alternator on it.




Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Also any advice on a clean easy way to fix those support knobs or a replacement bracket. I don't have a welder with me.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Also within the messed below, I'm guessing this isn't supposed to be here?


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Other items are the hall sensor harness looked a little rough:


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The O2 sensor cable has what looks like a ground wire broken off?


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Heard others mention air flow meter sensor or harness can be an issue as well, mine looked a little rough. I have loads of cleaning up to do.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Today after I put back the old middle distribution plug, new ignition coil, new engine ground, and wiggled around the Ignition Control Module. I cranked it and it almost started. So it seems it could be flooded. Arrivals of fuel pressure gauges and injectors tomorrow.

Open to all advice/comments and thanks again!
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 5:52 am    Post subject: Re: Starting Issue: Running out of fuel aftermath 83.5 Vanagon 1.9L Reply with quote

Cheap & easy, never hurts ..... get new spark plugs and try it.

Sitting may have allowed some fuel to evaporate off your plugs so it fired.

Overall we are rather confused.
I have spark
I don't have spark
I have fuel
But the injectors in your video aren't spraying, do you have fuel?

I think the only thing we KNOW you have is possibly compression.

Yes, you've got a few questionable wiring issues that need sorting out also.

Time to focus.... fuel? Positively Yes or No?

Injectors spray? Positively Yes or No?

Spark at the plugs? Positively Yes or No?

Plugs are good and not flooded? Yes or No?

Engine diagnosis 101 type stuff.
All of that dodgy wiring isn't helping things either. It is to warm and Sunny today, clean that up and verify good connections.

Dave
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 6:06 am    Post subject: Re: Starting Issue: Running out of fuel aftermath 83.5 Vanagon 1.9L Reply with quote

Those broken Alternator Studs are going to require some finesse to get out and a bit of skill so you don't ruin your engine case.

Don't go blaming GoWesty for a crappy bracket. Without the other supporting fasteners in place you put that under a stress it was not designed to endure.

That O2 wire is a shielded wire, that requires some extra steps to operate properly.

Overall you need a warm spot and a couple of days to go through the maintenance deferred items and set this engine right.

Dave
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 7:54 am    Post subject: Re: Starting Issue: Running out of fuel aftermath 83.5 Vanagon 1.9L Reply with quote

That engine bay needs a cleaning before it can get worked on. Put a large drop cloth down. Get a catch can. Get a box of 12 bottles of brake kleen. Get disposable brass brushes. The issue with that level of dirtiness is that it can hide a lot of issues.

It looks like your starter has the starter relay mod. So that's a plus.

Are your cv joints cracked? The starter looks like it's covered in grease. Or did you replace them recently? And it looks like you have a major oil leak. Once it's clean you can find out where.

The white wire hanging down is, I think, a diagnostic port of some sort that isn't used. I think it's supposed to be bolted to the block behind the alternator. I'm sure Dan or Mark or any of the Daves will correct me if I'm wrong on that.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 9:52 am    Post subject: Re: Starting Issue: Running out of fuel aftermath 83.5 Vanagon 1.9L Reply with quote

Yuch,

Someone added a relay for a starter problem. Likely a no crank hot problem. Here is what I notice. There is a smaller dangling wire red with a black tracer. I'm pretty sure it is supposed to be on the starter solenoid. It has something to do with providing power to the ECU? during cranking. I'd have to get my manual out and trace.

The wires on the hall distributor look terrible. Also, have you followed the brown wire in that harness? It needs to be grounded for everything to work. Good luck dealing with those alternator bolts. I watched a good video on you tube the other day on how to remove broken bolts.

Overall, I'm surprised you have gotten as far as you have. VW, did their home work. From what I've seen, I'd be afraid to run it around the block on a test drive.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:32 am    Post subject: Re: Starting Issue: Running out of fuel aftermath 83.5 Vanagon 1.9L Reply with quote

MarkWard wrote:
Yuch,

Someone added a relay for a starter problem. Likely a no crank hot problem. Here is what I notice. There is a smaller dangling wire red with a black tracer. I'm pretty sure it is supposed to be on the starter solenoid. It has something to do with providing power to the ECU? during cranking. I'd have to get my manual out and trace.

The wires on the hall distributor look terrible. Also, have you followed the brown wire in that harness? It needs to be grounded for everything to work. Good luck dealing with those alternator bolts. I watched a good video on you tube the other day on how to remove broken bolts.

Overall, I'm surprised you have gotten as far as you have. VW, did their home work. From what I've seen, I'd be afraid to run it around the block on a test drive.


+1 on that wire. It's supposed to go on a cluster of male spades on the starter solenoid, my van definitely won't start if it's disconnected. I don't think it matters which spade.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:36 am    Post subject: Re: Starting Issue: Running out of fuel aftermath 83.5 Vanagon 1.9L Reply with quote

Shocked

just goes to show you how tough these old girls are. that said....i would have never left the driveway if anything i owned looked like that
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