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Black Fastback Build Thread
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Clatter
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:21 pm    Post subject: Some Sussing Reply with quote

Might as well continue on.. Car might be 'built' but it's a long way from done.

In order to get it all working right,
You have to go out and drive the thing.
And that means getting it all dirty underneath.
So, last week a pro photo friend of mine Nick followed me over to Pearce where William let me tie up a lift for a few pics.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



The car sat for a while and i tried to get the motivation to wash it again,
then go and buff out the scratches we made at the show.
But that never happened.. I really can't get myself motivated to clean and buff this thing again.
Looks OK, right?
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Was going to pick the rear end up some more,
But I'm kind of liking how it sits.
It's got a bit of rake still, even after some sitting and a few trips around the neighborhood.
Might just put on a more compact muffler instead..
Plus, I'm able to get in/out of the driveway without scraping if i take a -very- slight angle.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Brake fluid, oil, and fuel all still seem to be staying in their respective little hidey places now,
Instead of trying to escape.


Damn left rear tire is always low after sitting! Mad
Thought it was a pin-hole from where the wheels were welded back together.
But then, i noticed the right front doing the same damn thing..
Maybe it's just new tires not seating tubelessly on their rims like they're sposta?
Think
Best thing seemed to just air 'em up and get some miles on.
So that's what i did.

Now,
This first highway drive wasn't all it could be.
Alignment on both the front and rear still has a long way to go.
TBPH, the front was done quicky because it's all coming back apart to fix the fuel fitting issue,
And the rear -was- coming back apart for a height adjustment.
So the alignment was bad, but the car still drove well enough.
On the highway it really wants to oversteer because the rear is all toed-out! Shocked

A super-annoying scrape/squeak in the shifter was rectified when i discovered i hadn't greased the rear bushing. Embarassed

Damn those shocks are stiff!! Mad

Went and picked up some grub from Mom's work,
And then went four exits down the highway to get my kid from his new lifeguard job.
5th gear is tall! Shocked
Around here there's so much traffic it's not really fun to drive.
Best vehicle for Santa Cruz would be something electric - like a golf cart! Mad "Running" Rolling Eyes on the highway might mean maybe using 4th.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Temps started climbing pretty quick once out and moving.
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By the time we got back home - Holy Sheep Shit! Shocked
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CHT wasn't showing anything out of line.. Confused
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Went inside and pouted a bit, and drank a cool one to calm down.
Then it occurred to me that i got one of those IR temp guns.

Top of case:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Taco plate at sender:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Dipstick block-off plate:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Opening the oil cap gave a small wisp of smoke,
Like other cars i had before,
But not since using Brad Penn..
Plus, the dipstick was too hot to touch.
So definitely too hot, but not crazy hot like the gauge says.
Shoulda spit on the case, but it's too pretty for that! Laughing

Check out how white it is inside the tailpipe.
Still race gas, so this means something(!)
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Going to pull some plugs once it cools off to look at those.

Can't put my wideband on until the race gas is gone.
Might just pump the race gas out and get going with 92 sooner than later.
Don't want to change jets until i can check what's up on the wideband.
Plus, i don't trust this fuel gauge yet..
Want to see what it says with an empty tank, dig? Wink

Also found the cooling boot popped off the bottom of the adaptor:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Was going to do "got too hot" procedures;
Dump oil, adjust valves, etc.
But it only went a few easy miles on a relatively cool day.
TBPH, I'm kinda suspicious of the gauge.
Oil that hot woulda shown lower pressure.
Plus, it didn't clatter or sound funny..
Wonder if i got a mismatched sender.? Think

Might also plug up those intake holes in the ductwork If they're not going to get used.


So,
Yeah,
The battle rages on. Rolling Eyes

Said i was gonna make this thing a driver,
And that's what's gonna happen.

Still a long way to go.
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Erik G
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Black Fastback Build Thread Reply with quote

cooling boot + race gas, and is the engine even broken in yet? my new big block 396 impala wagon motor is overheating, freakin frustrating
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VWporscheGT3
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 8:02 am    Post subject: Re: Black Fastback Build Thread Reply with quote

I run a VDO cockpit oil temp in mine and it is roughly 10 degrees off, i use a similar sender. i verified that with a mechanical temp gauge, LONG LONG thermometer, and a laser temp gun. all of which were reading 190 and the gauge was reading 180 right after a prolonged 75mph highway run. at 80-85 the oil stays almost rock solid at 200... and with this little engine i dont like turning those rpms for long and makes me wish i had your awesome transmission of doom!
when I was 18 and was driving my fastback ... because i had to... my motor mounts were saggy and the bellows would pop off on the regular... it drove me NUTS! so much so that i constantly check it today.

Anyway, I saw a new post and your thread back at the top and thought YAY! UPDATE! lol thanks bro
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Clatter
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 4:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Black Fastback Build Thread Reply with quote

VWporscheGT3 wrote:
at 80-85 the oil stays almost rock solid at 200.


At 45-50 mine gets a little hotter than that..! Razz

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Tram
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 6:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Black Fastback Build Thread Reply with quote

Clatter wrote:
VWporscheGT3 wrote:
at 80-85 the oil stays almost rock solid at 200.


At 45-50 mine gets a little hotter than that..! Razz

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


This really came out sweet, Steve. It was well worth the long journey. Very Happy
Forgive me if this already happened and I missed it, but... I think an external oil cooler may be in your future.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 9:25 am    Post subject: Re: Black Fastback Build Thread Reply with quote

I was just thinking, For the excessive oil temps, could one of you oil relief valves not be working right? Stuck in place or too heavy/light of a spring not letting oil to the cooler? Could the oil cooler be plugged?

Hopefully it’s something simple, good luck

Aiden
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 9:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Black Fastback Build Thread Reply with quote

Ceckert64 wrote:
I was just thinking, For the excessive oil temps, could one of you oil relief valves not be working right? Stuck in place or too heavy/light of a spring not letting oil to the cooler? Could the oil cooler be plugged?

Hopefully it’s something simple, good luck

Aiden


if a oil valve is stuck or the cooler clogged the temp would be even higher.
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Clatter
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:31 am    Post subject: Re: Black Fastback Build Thread Reply with quote

Going to be hunkering down and gathering the doodoo to have a big final session on the thing..

Ordered a set of Konis.
These Bilsteins aren't adjustable and look to be the wrong shocks for this app.

Getting a long meat thermometer to stick down the dipstick tube,
Plus a blue-jillion little other things to finish up.
Finish interior sound insulation, send a last box of stuff to cad plating, etc..

The whole front end will be coming apart to properly address the tie-rod-hitting-fuel-fitting issue.
What I'll be doing is shortening the drag link on the steering box, and the tie rod arms to match.
This will move the tie rod 'forward' away from the fuel fittings.
Here's hoping it won't mess geometry up.
Only plan on removing about 1/4"..

Also disassembled a jack.
It'll get cad plating and black powder coat as well.

Here the stuff is all ready for a gas bath:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



So, it'll be a week or so of getting an Oval out of the way,
shopping, and waiting for parts to arrive.
Once it's all here and in one place, we should be able to start knocking out these last issues,
Get the oil temp issue sussed, and the suspension final assembled for a trip to the alignment shop..

The battle rages on.. Cool
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:50 am    Post subject: Re: Black Fastback Build Thread Reply with quote

Clatter wrote:
Going to be hunkering down and gathering the doodoo to have a big final session on the thing..

Ordered a set of Konis.
These Bilsteins aren't adjustable and look to be the wrong shocks for this app.

Getting a long meat thermometer to stick down the dipstick tube,
Plus a blue-jillion little other things to finish up.
Finish interior sound insulation, send a last box of stuff to cad plating, etc..

The whole front end will be coming apart to properly address the tie-rod-hitting-fuel-fitting issue.
What I'll be doing is shortening the drag link on the steering box, and the tie rod arms to match.
This will move the tie rod 'forward' away from the fuel fittings.
Here's hoping it won't mess geometry up.
Only plan on removing about 1/4"..

Also disassembled a jack.
It'll get cad plating and black powder coat as well.

Here the stuff is all ready for a gas bath:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



So, it'll be a week or so of getting an Oval out of the way,
shopping, and waiting for parts to arrive.
Once it's all here and in one place, we should be able to start knocking out these last issues,
Get the oil temp issue sussed, and the suspension final assembled for a trip to the alignment shop..

The battle rages on.. Cool


Sounds like a good plan to me while you work on getting the Oval out of your working space.
Are you going to have Russel work on your pitman arm and the 2 steering arms?
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Clatter
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Black Fastback Build Thread Reply with quote

I think I'll go ahead and shorten those things myself..

I'm feelin' lucky. Wink
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Black Fastback Build Thread Reply with quote

Clatter wrote:
I think I'll go ahead and shorten those things myself..

I'm feelin' lucky. Wink


Maybe a silly idea, and I'm well aware of how shit that works in your head doesn't always work in reality, but...

If all you need is 1/4", why not slightly change the position of the tank rather than cutting up and re welding steering linkage? Can you space the tank up enough in front to clear? In the rear? All around?

Seems it would or could work on the '68/9 cars I have here but '67 has the under- hood fill which might fuck this plan up, unless it looks feasible enough to maybe enlarge the fill pipe hole a bit if necessary. It'd be easy to mock up and might save a ton of work.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Black Fastback Build Thread Reply with quote

I think the hole for the fill pipe is pretty big relative to the pipe itself.

Max
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 2:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Black Fastback Build Thread Reply with quote

Tram wrote:
Clatter wrote:
I think I'll go ahead and shorten those things myself..

I'm feelin' lucky. Wink


Maybe a silly idea, and I'm well aware of how shit that works in your head doesn't always work in reality, but...

If all you need is 1/4", why not slightly change the position of the tank rather than cutting up and re welding steering linkage? Can you space the tank up enough in front to clear? In the rear? All around?

Seems it would or could work on the '68/9 cars I have here but '67 has the under- hood fill which might fuck this plan up, unless it looks feasible enough to maybe enlarge the fill pipe hole a bit if necessary. It'd be easy to mock up and might save a ton of work.



I thought it the lines coming out of the body, not the tank?
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 2:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Black Fastback Build Thread Reply with quote

Jason37 wrote:
Tram wrote:
Clatter wrote:
I think I'll go ahead and shorten those things myself..

I'm feelin' lucky. Wink


Maybe a silly idea, and I'm well aware of how shit that works in your head doesn't always work in reality, but...

If all you need is 1/4", why not slightly change the position of the tank rather than cutting up and re welding steering linkage? Can you space the tank up enough in front to clear? In the rear? All around?

Seems it would or could work on the '68/9 cars I have here but '67 has the under- hood fill which might fuck this plan up, unless it looks feasible enough to maybe enlarge the fill pipe hole a bit if necessary. It'd be easy to mock up and might save a ton of work.



I thought it the lines coming out of the body, not the tank?


Could be! I thought in the only pic I could find I was looking at the tank. Even so, I am wondering why things couldn't be re- routed out of the way.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Black Fastback Build Thread Reply with quote

The lines come out of the pan in the center of the frame-head above the rectangular access hatch.
Same location as factory on the FI cars; two fittings - supply and return.
They're attached to the pan, in the factory spot,
It's just that the fittings i'm using don't make the turn super-tight like the factory fuel lines did..
(And the tie rods I'm using are Lanner's bigger diameter 'super duty' version).

Here's the factory lines; they make a really tight turn as they leave the tunnel.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

There's full-on threaded 90 AN fittings there now.
They don't turn as tight, and hit the tie rods (Barely)

If Russel can weld drop spindles and sectioned trailing arms that support the weight of the car,
I can weld some steering arms to withstand the rigors of steering..

I'm really not coming up with any other way to do this right.
A banjo doesn't give me more room on the AN male fittings welded to the tunnel.
The stock tie-rod i have in there with a slight bend in it works, but doesn't inspire confidence.
Plus, it won't give fine adjustment; it's 'one thread' of adjustment at a time.
Wences suggested hammering the Lanner tie rod flat for a section there.
That would give it a 'half thread' of adjustment at a time,
but I'm not sure it would give enough room.

If i shorten the steering arms and drag link a bit, it will be a sort of 'quick steer' kit, and will definitely give me the room i need.
Hopefully it won't mess up the geometry, or hit something else.
And I'll have to pay close attention to steering stop adjustment,
But I'm already doing plenty of that with these huge tires.. Wink



Remember, fellas,
It ain't about how hard it is to do.
How long it takes or how much it costs do not matter here..!
It's all about building the Very. Best. Car. I. CAN.


Spoken by a Dallas Cowboys cheerleader taking hours and hours to get ready..
"Beauty Knows NO Pain!" Laughing
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Black Fastback Build Thread Reply with quote

VW used to make special front beam rubbers of different thicknesses for tweaking caster. Maybe you could somehow move the entire front beam slightly forward using that methodology, then perhaps shim your coupler on one side if necessary.

Or just cut and weld shit up and if you boink something so that it doesn't work I have parts! Very Happy
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vwfye wrote:
Oh the joy of custom things...


If water is the only drink for a wise man, there are serious upsides to being stupid.


RIPRW

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Black Fastback Build Thread Reply with quote

I know there are a couple of different drag links, I wonder if one is shorter than another.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 4:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Black Fastback Build Thread Reply with quote

Can you add a bend (or a fancy miter cut and weld back together) to the long tie rod near the outer side? I mean, I know you can, but would it help?
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 9:23 am    Post subject: Re: Black Fastback Build Thread Reply with quote

Why not go to an aftermarket smaller diameter tie-rod? What material is your tie rod now? Solid, or tubing with the bungs welded at the ends for the threads?

On one of my Bajas, I have 3/4" solid tubing that's drilled and tapped for Heim joints, and the other car uses 1" tubing that has the bungs welded on the end.

We run stock tie-rods in the Class 11 cars, and we sink a stock sway bar down the middle for strength, if it will survive an off-road race, it will surely survive a street car.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 27, 2021 10:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Black Fastback Build Thread Reply with quote

Clatter wrote:
VWporscheGT3 wrote:
at 80-85 the oil stays almost rock solid at 200.


At 45-50 mine gets a little hotter than that..! Razz

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

I had the same temp issues with the T4.
Oil and head temp in uncomfortable holy crap area.
I installed a Deral super duper mega chill 60000 btu cooler and oil came down a lot but I still was not comfortable.
After much sleeplessness and talking to the universe I took the sleds off and everything changed.
The next day I drove mid day 98 degrees to the DKP cruise and the oil never reached 220 and heads ran 350 (dakota digital, sender under #3 plug) at 65/70. Stoichiometry at 13.3. I believe the Notch air intake is in a negative pressure area at speed, the Fasty may be also. Temps are acceptable so I am good now.
Amazing power, now I just need to get the steering to feel much less vague.
914 guys drop to 4th if necessary to keep load off. That tip does look hot.
Good luck.
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