| Author |
Message |
sactojesse
Samba Member
Joined: November 21, 2006
Posts: 2655
Location: Sacramento, California, USA
|
 Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 10:04 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| Bruce wrote: |
| sactojesse wrote: |
| KHLOBUG wrote: |
| Bring timing on 009 back to TDC just to pass smog. |
Bingo. You are failing on idle emissions only. Set your initial timing at idle to TDC for the test only. Then, after you pass, put it back at 7.5 BTDC to get your full 28-32 degrees of advance. Or, replace that 009 with a SVDA or stock vacuum advance distributor and set it at TDC initial timing and leave it there. |
Messing around with timing isn't going to correct his PIG rich mixture at idle and loaded.
The root cause of the problem is the Zenith carb. A stock 1600 needs a stock carb. Then, when adjusted properly, will pass all the time. (with the correct stock distributor) |
As noted in my prior post (the one immediately preceding your post), I missed the part about him failing the loaded test and the part about him having a Zenith 32 NDIX. Doh. 
_________________
1966 Karmann-Ghia convertible |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Bruce
Samba Member
Joined: May 16, 2003
Posts: 17644
Location: Left coast, Canada
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 12:05 am Post subject: |
|
|
| KHLOBUG wrote: |
1. Bring timing on 009 back to TDC just to pass smog.
2. Use 87 OCT instead of 91 OCT gas???
3. And if that does not do it change carb to something closer to stock or jet it down I guess if I can even get jets for it.
4. I also read somewhere on here a guy slaps on a cat converter in place of his muffler each year .... |
1. If you use a stock dual vacuum distributor with the right stock carb, your HC numbers will be so low, you'll think something is wrong with their testing machines. With this magical distributor, HC readings under 100ppm are typical. That is why VW put it on engines sent to the USA.
2. Won't make a damn bit of difference.
3. Correct. Put a stock carb on it.
4. Won't work in your case. Your CO and HC numbers are so high that a CAT will be overwhelmed. When that happens, it gives up allowing huge emissions to pass right through.
_________________
| overheard at the portland Swap Meet... wrote: |
| ..... a steering wheel made from a mastadon tusk..... |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bruce
Samba Member
Joined: May 16, 2003
Posts: 17644
Location: Left coast, Canada
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 11:59 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| sactojesse wrote: |
| KHLOBUG wrote: |
| Bring timing on 009 back to TDC just to pass smog. |
Bingo. You are failing on idle emissions only. Set your initial timing at idle to TDC for the test only. Then, after you pass, put it back at 7.5 BTDC to get your full 28-32 degrees of advance. Or, replace that 009 with a SVDA or stock vacuum advance distributor and set it at TDC initial timing and leave it there. |
Messing around with timing isn't going to correct his PIG rich mixture at idle and loaded.
The root cause of the problem is the Zenith carb. A stock 1600 needs a stock carb. Then, when adjusted properly, will pass all the time. (with the correct stock distributor)
_________________
| overheard at the portland Swap Meet... wrote: |
| ..... a steering wheel made from a mastadon tusk..... |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
sactojesse
Samba Member
Joined: November 21, 2006
Posts: 2655
Location: Sacramento, California, USA
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 1:28 pm Post subject: Re: 009 dist adjust |
|
|
| KHLOBUG wrote: |
sactojesse - Thank you for your response sounds like you have experience with this. It did fail the CO Loaded Test also though not just idle test. I listed that figure above too.
You think the timing change with the 009 will also lower the CO Loaded enough to pass the STD?
I do not have the other dist so if can pass with the 009 I need to try with the 009 before I buy one! |
Sorry, I missed that part and the part about you having a single Zenith. The change in initial timing will likely only help on idle emissions.
_________________
1966 Karmann-Ghia convertible |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KHLOBUG
Samba Member
Joined: October 07, 2009
Posts: 5
Location: AZ
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 12:35 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Also forgot to mention it is a stinger with just a sound baffle not a muffler. not sure this would matter any. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KHLOBUG
Samba Member
Joined: October 07, 2009
Posts: 5
Location: AZ
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 12:32 pm Post subject: 009 dist adjust |
|
|
sactojesse - Thank you for your response sounds like you have experience with this. It did fail the CO Loaded Test also though not just idle test. I listed that figure above too.
You think the timing change with the 009 will also lower the CO Loaded enough to pass the STD?
I do not have the other dist so if can pass with the 009 I need to try with the 009 before I buy one!
Thanks for the support and info! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
sactojesse
Samba Member
Joined: November 21, 2006
Posts: 2655
Location: Sacramento, California, USA
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 10:59 am Post subject: |
|
|
| KHLOBUG wrote: |
| Bring timing on 009 back to TDC just to pass smog. |
Bingo. You are failing on idle emissions only. Set your initial timing at idle to TDC for the test only. Then, after you pass, put it back at 7.5 BTDC to get your full 28-32 degrees of advance. Or, replace that 009 with a SVDA or stock vacuum advance distributor and set it at TDC initial timing and leave it there.
_________________
1966 Karmann-Ghia convertible |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
[email protected]
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2002
Posts: 12785
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 8:49 am Post subject: |
|
|
when it is properly jetted and tuned it will pass easily.
_________________
It's just advice, do whatever you want with it!
Please do NOT send me Private Messages through the Samba PM System (I will not see them). Send me an e-mail to john at aircooled dot net
"Like" our Facebook page at
http://www.facebook.com/vwpartsaircoolednet
and get a 5% off code for use on one order for VW Parts ON OUR PARTS STORE WEBSITE, vwparts.aircooled.net |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
[email protected]
Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2002
Posts: 4394
Location: Brew City
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 8:45 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Another trick I have used to get aircooled cars to pass emissions tests is to let them run and idle for about 2 hours and then take them in to be tested. I don't know the exact science behind it, but I know it's worked on about 10 cars. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KHLOBUG
Samba Member
Joined: October 07, 2009
Posts: 5
Location: AZ
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 12:41 am Post subject: |
|
|
I have the same problem my 70 bug is not passing. I just got it and it came from California so was never a problem there. I live in PHX, AZ area and the require back to 67!!!
Here is my results:
HC: Loaded read=287 STD=500 PASS
HC: Idle read= 686 STD=500 FAIL
CO: Loaded read=6.92 STD=4.20 FAIL
CO: Idle read=7.06 STD=5.50 FAIL
My dad is very knowledgeable on VWs but never worried about smog since we were in CA also so here is what we did BEFORE the test above: new plugs, new plug wires, new 009 dist, adjusted valves, set timing to about 5 deg before TDC at idle-goes to about 30 deg at high RPMS, checked dwell on points is good range above 50, new 91 OCT gas.
*The motor appears to be a stock 1600.
*It has 009 dist
*A zenith (not sure spelling is correct) single carb. My dad says it is a really good performance carb but probably the problem.
*The bug has not ran is 4 years but since we did all the tune up items above it runs awesome...again all done BEFORE test results above.
If I am reading all of your suggestions correctly it sounds my first step is
1. Bring timing on 009 back to TDC just to pass smog.
2. Use 87 OCT instead of 91 OCT gas???
3. And if that does not do it change carb to something closer to stock or jet it down I guess if I can even get jets for it.
4. I also read somewhere on here a guy slaps on a cat converter in place of his muffler each year and it sounds like he lives where I do. I sent him a message for more info but has has not responded. Any thoughts on that???
I had my last VW 20 years ago at age 16 it was a sweet SoCal looker only a couple years earlier and funny even 20 years ago it was still too old to need a smog it in CA!!!!
So thanks for any help this is all new to me. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bruce
Samba Member
Joined: May 16, 2003
Posts: 17644
Location: Left coast, Canada
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 5:33 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| marc s. wrote: |
As to adjustments, is the consensus that should I reduce idle timing to TDC (its a 009) or lean out the idle mixture? |
You should post your VIN so we can see what the numbers are. Even passing numbers help diagnose the true problem. Without the numbers, everyone is just guessing.
Likely your 009 is the cause of the trouble. What engine do you have? What carb? Post a pic of your engine so we can see what parts are on it.
_________________
| overheard at the portland Swap Meet... wrote: |
| ..... a steering wheel made from a mastadon tusk..... |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
GDOG57
Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2006
Posts: 1066
Location: Gilbert,Arizona
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 4:47 pm Post subject: |
|
|
What exactly did you fail on,and what were the readings? If you failed on HC's,you are too lean. If you failed on CO's,you are too rich. If you failed on both,you are way too rich. I would retard the timing a little,and create a small vacuum leak,say the line that would go to the dist.(ported vacuum that only has vacuum with the throttle opened.) Try that and keep us posted.
I know it's only a matter of time before the U.S tries,or makes us older car's pass emissions.
_________________
'57 oval window deluxe,Agave green(L240) 2276cc w/51.5 IDA's
'57 type 2 panel ( L31 dove blue) project daily driver,Singleport 1955cc
'69 Squareback (L30A Royal Red) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
marc s.
Samba Member
Joined: August 11, 2004
Posts: 42
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 6:55 am Post subject: |
|
|
Sorry for taking so long to reply, but I was working away.
First, thanks to all for helping out.
As for the "great mystery" as to where is such a draconian place that would force a poor, tired 47 year old bus to comply with emission standards, the answer is ... Vancouver BC. I could bypass the requirement by obtaining a "collector" registration but that comes with limitations; essentially for people who go on Sunday drives. My bus is my daily driver. I can get exempted if I spend/waste $300 per year on "repairs", what a money-grabbing scam.
I wanted to find out how the emissions would change if I just switched from 91 to 87 octane gas with no other changes. Here are the results:
Driving: HC improved by 15%, CO exactly the same, NOx up by 10% but still well within limit.
Idle: HC improved by 40%!, CO improved by 10% but still slightly above limit (almost passed).
As to adjustments, is the consensus that should I reduce idle timing to TDC (its a 009) or lean out the idle mixture?
Thanks, Marc |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
nikita
Samba Member
Joined: September 16, 2007
Posts: 531
Location: California
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 7:25 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Bruce wrote: |
The federal standard has never been measured in PPM of HC or % of CO. It's always been g/mile. Besides, for a Bug, your numbers are for late 70s cars.
|
Early Federal standards were similar to 1966 California. They were not in gm/mi until the 1970's. Imports were not included in the 1966 California standard, probably something about import tariffs and such. Engines below a certain displacement were also not included at first, such as the Fiat 850, which was really 820cc. The ppm standard I quoted may have been relaxed for smaller engines, as the vast majority of imports were under 2L displacement. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bruce
Samba Member
Joined: May 16, 2003
Posts: 17644
Location: Left coast, Canada
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:48 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| nikita wrote: |
Since exhaust emissions standards didnt come before the '66 model year, there was no documented "factory" standard before that. How can you test to a standard that didnt exist. What I fear is that his '61 is being tested to the '68 Federal standard, which I think was 275ppm HC and 2.5pct CO. There was no NOx standard until '72, so how can they possibly expect a '61 to be tested for that?
|
The federal standard has never been measured in PPM of HC or % of CO. It's always been g/mile. Besides, for a Bug, your numbers are for late 70s cars.
Sure there were no standards to meet when 50s cars were made, but the engineers today know what cutoff levels any engine in good shape should produce.
Where I live, every car that is daily driven is subject to smog testing. Once I heard about a guy with a Model T complaining that he shouldn't have to be tested. I've seen the numbers they have to meet. They are so huge that it would be an embarrassment to fail. I also talked to one guy with a 47 Ford who went through smog. He passed with ease. He also said they couldn't drive his car, so he did it for them.
_________________
| overheard at the portland Swap Meet... wrote: |
| ..... a steering wheel made from a mastadon tusk..... |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
miniman82
Samba Swamp Donkey
Joined: March 22, 2005
Posts: 9515
Location: Southern Maryland
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 10:55 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| sactojesse wrote: |
| an emissions waiver can be obtained for 1967 or earlier vehicles if you can document that you've spent more than $75 in emissions related repairs. |
Greatful Dead stickers and Odor Eaters also count for Bus owners. 
_________________
Build thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=212747
| Glenn wrote: |
| satterley_sr wrote: |
I just wanted to bitch but I'm getting no sympathy. |
Welcome to the Samba. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
sactojesse
Samba Member
Joined: November 21, 2006
Posts: 2655
Location: Sacramento, California, USA
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 10:47 pm Post subject: |
|
|
^
My guess is the Denver metro area. I don't see any exemptions unless it's registered as "horseless carriage", "farm", or "street rod," whatever those categories entail.
http://www.colorado.gov/cs/Satellite?c=Page&ci...FRMVLayout
However, it appears an emissions waiver can be obtained for 1967 or earlier vehicles if you can document that you've spent more than $75 in emissions related repairs.
_________________
1966 Karmann-Ghia convertible |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
GDOG57
Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2006
Posts: 1066
Location: Gilbert,Arizona
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 7:05 pm Post subject: Re: Failed emission test-Please help |
|
|
| marc s. wrote: |
Where I live cars have to pass a yearly emission test which my 61 bus just failed It passed all the driving parameters (HC, CO, NOx) but at idle CO was high and HC were barely within limit.
The bus runs great. It has a new 1600 DP with 20,000 miles on it and a 34 PICT-3 carb bought new a year ago.
Is there a SIMPLE adjustment I could make to improve the idle CO (and perhaps HC)? The stress is on SIMPLE as my mechanical skills are quite limited 
Also, I did the test running 91 octane gas. Would switching to 87 octane improve emissions at idle by allowing an earlier/more complete combustion?
Many thanks in advance to any kind soul willing to help.
Marc. |
I must know.Where do you live,that you have to smog a '61?
_________________
'57 oval window deluxe,Agave green(L240) 2276cc w/51.5 IDA's
'57 type 2 panel ( L31 dove blue) project daily driver,Singleport 1955cc
'69 Squareback (L30A Royal Red) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
miniman82
Samba Swamp Donkey
Joined: March 22, 2005
Posts: 9515
Location: Southern Maryland
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 8:25 am Post subject: |
|
|
I just came from CA, there are no emissions or safety equipment checks period for model years 1974 and earlier. I know, I registered my '72 Mini Cooper and the only thing the port authority, import people, or the DMV looked at was my paperwork. Never once did they ask to see the car.
_________________
Build thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=212747
| Glenn wrote: |
| satterley_sr wrote: |
I just wanted to bitch but I'm getting no sympathy. |
Welcome to the Samba. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
nikita
Samba Member
Joined: September 16, 2007
Posts: 531
Location: California
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 7:42 am Post subject: |
|
|
| derluftwagen wrote: |
Cars prior to 66 did not have any factory smog equipment.
1961 is pretty early for smog, is there any factory documentation that states the breakdown of the emissions? From what I understand CA was going to go by the factory emission data and hold cars and trucks 61 and later to those specifications, if they did not pass they would be considered gross polluters and subject to seizure and destruction by the state. From what I understood if the car did not pass what the emissions were at the time the car was purchased new (which means you have to have a new condition engine in the car) it would not pass the test.
|
The first statement is not true. California required a closed crankcase vent system starting in '61. VW always had one, but my '57 Chevy, for example, originally had a road draft tube. The Feds required it by '65. When cars transferred ownership, California required the closed system had to be retrofitted back to the '55 model year.
Since exhaust emissions standards didnt come before the '66 model year, there was no documented "factory" standard before that. How can you test to a standard that didnt exist. What I fear is that his '61 is being tested to the '68 Federal standard, which I think was 275ppm HC and 2.5pct CO. There was no NOx standard until '72, so how can they possibly expect a '61 to be tested for that?
GM and Ford used airpumps to meet the early standard, Chrysler just messed with the timing. So, I still think that timing is the key to reducing emissions on that '61. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
