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snowsyncro
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Joined: January 11, 2009
Posts: 1557
Location: East Preston, Nova Scotia, Canada
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 Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:10 am Post subject: |
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OK, thanks for that. I do have a facebook account, which I regularly check (about once per month when one of my kids tells me there is something I need to check).
That link you provided for the bus treffen has an English version, so that is a great start for me. It links to their Facebook page, which of course is German. I will have to brush up on my Grade 10 German. Mr. Munro would be proud.
RonC |
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silverbulletuk
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Joined: February 02, 2010
Posts: 206
Location: NW Surrey, UK
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| Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 4:37 am Post subject: |
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It might be worth asking after the TDi ZA owner via the facebook link here:
http://www.bus-tuning-treffen.de/
Someone will know him, his English was pretty good IIRC (as is so many Germans, very embarrassing but I always try my best!)
I don't do any of that "friendface" stuff.
_________________
1986 syncro twin-slider rhd, 3.2S Oettinger wbx6
1990 SA Microbus - Supercharged wbx going in with UN-1 trans.
www.025motorsport.com |
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silverbulletuk
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Joined: February 02, 2010
Posts: 206
Location: NW Surrey, UK
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| Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 2:46 am Post subject: |
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Typo alert! I just checked ETKA for the part no's:
The alloy bracket is 035 260 899 for the 10v, the 893... part is 20v 
Rubber buffer/bush is 811 339 199 B (all the same afics)
The steel cup is 331 199 311, not sure if that's a global part or ZA only.
Hope this helps, I have the 1995-2003 parts listed if anyone needs to know more.
Ian
_________________
1986 syncro twin-slider rhd, 3.2S Oettinger wbx6
1990 SA Microbus - Supercharged wbx going in with UN-1 trans.
www.025motorsport.com |
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snowsyncro
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Joined: January 11, 2009
Posts: 1557
Location: East Preston, Nova Scotia, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 2:27 am Post subject: |
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This is great. Thanks silverbulletuk.
RonC |
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silverbulletuk
Samba Member
Joined: February 02, 2010
Posts: 206
Location: NW Surrey, UK
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| Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 2:16 am Post subject: |
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Knew I had one on file somewhere. The alloy casting (893 199 343) is a standard Audi 80/90/coupe part, not sure about the rubber bush but it looks the same :
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1986 syncro twin-slider rhd, 3.2S Oettinger wbx6
1990 SA Microbus - Supercharged wbx going in with UN-1 trans.
www.025motorsport.com |
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snowsyncro
Samba Member
Joined: January 11, 2009
Posts: 1557
Location: East Preston, Nova Scotia, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 4:45 am Post subject: |
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| silverbulletuk wrote: |
I can't believe that I almost forgot this:
At the Hockenheim Bus Treffen 2012, a German guy I was chatting to about SA buses - my scruffy 2.6 did get a fair bit of attention, very flattering - said that he owns a very late (2003) prototype 2.5 TDi T3ZA.
The story goes that factory built only three, but this was just before VW pulled the plug on the ZA Transporter production.
I didn't get to speak to him for long enough to find out which engine it has or what it's like to drive, but a friend who is there right now in his T3ZA is on the look-out for him.
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Good thing you remembered too! I hope your friend can locate that fellow.
| silverbulletuk wrote: |
IME the 5-cyl petrol is a fantastic, smooth, torquey engine and is well suited to the T3. The extra weight out the back isn't noticeable, if anything it improves the traction in less-than-ideal road conditions. Cruising at 65 mph at 3200 rpm is a joy. The only time it's been a bit of a handful was in the snow, where it would wheelspin all too easily, but I have a ZF LSD to put that right.
I've had more vibration issues from failed wheel bearings and worn CV joints than the engine!
It's worth noting that in SA, this engine is capable of huge mileages and is hardly ever opened up. They simply just don't break because they were so well engineered and over-specified. A classic motor IMHO. |
I am a fan of this engine as well. I have three of these in T4s. 'danfromsyr' have fitted those to two (automatic) vans. Do you have any photos of the third engine mount?
RonC |
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silverbulletuk
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Joined: February 02, 2010
Posts: 206
Location: NW Surrey, UK
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| Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 2:24 am Post subject: |
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I can't believe that I almost forgot this:
At the Hockenheim Bus Treffen 2012, a German guy I was chatting to about SA buses - my scruffy 2.6 did get a fair bit of attention, very flattering - said that he owns a very late (2003) prototype 2.5 TDi T3ZA.
The story goes that factory built only three, but this was just before VW pulled the plug on the ZA Transporter production.
I didn't get to speak to him for long enough to find out which engine it has or what it's like to drive, but a friend who is there right now in his T3ZA is on the look-out for him.
IME the 5-cyl petrol is a fantastic, smooth, torquey engine and is well suited to the T3. The extra weight out the back isn't noticeable, if anything it improves the traction in less-than-ideal road conditions. Cruising at 65 mph at 3200 rpm is a joy. The only time it's been a bit of a handful was in the snow, where it would wheelspin all too easily, but I have a ZF LSD to put that right.
I've had more vibration issues from failed wheel bearings and worn CV joints than the engine!
It's worth noting that in SA, this engine is capable of huge mileages and is hardly ever opened up. They simply just don't break because they were so well engineered and over-specified. A classic motor IMHO.
_________________
1986 syncro twin-slider rhd, 3.2S Oettinger wbx6
1990 SA Microbus - Supercharged wbx going in with UN-1 trans.
www.025motorsport.com |
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snowsyncro
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Joined: January 11, 2009
Posts: 1557
Location: East Preston, Nova Scotia, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:10 am Post subject: |
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| Jon_slider wrote: |
The vibration issues are not resolved by using a dual mass flywheel, nor does a brace solve the problem to my satisfaction. The 5cyl vibes are inherent in the design, adding dual mass flys, transaxle braces, and even the 3rd motor mount like Hermann installed, are just masking the problem that is still there.
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That is true about the inherent 'rocking' vibration. The purpose of the transaxle brace was to push the natural, or resonant, frequency of the bell housing/main housing flex away from the common range of the engine vibration, thus avoiding resonance. In that function, the original SA brace proved to be effective, at least for the gasoline engine. Maybe the change to diesel is too much for it to handle, or the Syncro version does not provide the same level of stiffening.
The dual-mass flywheel is there for torsional vibration, which you can't really feel anyway, unless it is extremely bad. It is analogous to high blood pressure, the so-called 'silent killer'. The DMF is pretty effective at what it is designed to do (until it fails), but it won't do anything to diminish the vibration that you are referring to above. The DMF is part of the reason today's diesels are quieter at idle and low RPM, not as much 'clatter'.
I think the third mount is very important. The other two mounts are at the centre of mass of the engine, one per side. They support the mass, but do nothing to resist the rocking vibration. And with a longitudinal transaxle, the only thing resisting the vibration is the transaxle -- exactly what you do not want. With the 5-cylinder diesel in the Eurovan Transporter, which has a lateral configuration, the engine mounts are at the extreme ends of the engine/transaxle. One at the very front of the engine, and the other at the very end of the gearbox. They span the full width of the engine bay -- this is the optimum configuration of the mounts to provide the greatest amount of damping for the rocking vibration.
edit: In the Eurovan, the third mount is the so-called transaxle mount, a large centrally-mounted rubber mount that sits behind the engine/transaxle. It resists the engine torque; and things get pretty interesting when that one breaks, and they do.
Interestingly, Volvo used a centre-of-mass mounting system for their lateral configuration cars, but with a carefully designed third mount to snub vibration. Perhaps this was because, in a car it was important to minimize NVH in the cabin, and this was the most effective solution for that.
RonC |
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Jon_slider
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Joined: April 11, 2007
Posts: 5091
Location: Santa Cruz, Crowdifornia
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| Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:04 am Post subject: |
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> Jon, the comments on 1st and 2nd order vibration, flywheel "imbalance" are consistent with the iseismometer plots you posted at various rpms. Very interesting to see that your SA contact has such a knowledge base on this topic. Interesting stuff.
Yes, I did find the SA people Ive contacted are extremely knowledgeable about the vibration problems inherent in 5 cyl gasoline motors installed in Vanagons. The vibration problem is even worse in a Diesel.
The vibration issues are not resolved by using a dual mass flywheel, nor does a brace solve the problem to my satisfaction. The 5cyl vibes are inherent in the design, adding dual mass flys, transaxle braces, and even the 3rd motor mount like Hermann installed, are just masking the problem that is still there.
Another very undesireable feature of my 5Cyl AEL TDi is that it weighs 300 pounds more than a waterboxer.
> The engine could be made to either "rock" side-to-side, or "nod" end-to-end. With an inline engine fitted to a gearbox (or transaxle) the 1-2-4-5-3 gives the "nodding" action
excellent description!
imnsho, a 5 cyl motor, of any fuel type, is a very poor choice for a Vanagon.
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My Soapboxes: Inflation; Handling; Gearing; Decoupling; Swepco |
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silverbulletuk
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Joined: February 02, 2010
Posts: 206
Location: NW Surrey, UK
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| Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 9:04 am Post subject: |
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Another thing to consider is that the driveshafts are swept backwards towards the wheels, just to get the longer motor in. So by the time a syncro version had received the 55mm driveline "drop", the CV's were probably reaching the limit of articulation in the eyes of the engineers at VWSA. Never mind the vulnerable rear crank pulley and loss of departure angle, but that's another matter.
At one point, when my bus was plagued by engine loom problems, I considered fitting the 115 bhp AAT TDi engine from an early A6. I'm so glad that I didn't, the petrol engine is at it's best when singing at 3000 rpm, which is ideal for relaxed cruising.
I'm hoping that a 200 bhp / 200 lb.ft 2.6 20v engine will be the ideal motor for my bus, when it's finished 
_________________
1986 syncro twin-slider rhd, 3.2S Oettinger wbx6
1990 SA Microbus - Supercharged wbx going in with UN-1 trans.
www.025motorsport.com |
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snowsyncro
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Joined: January 11, 2009
Posts: 1557
Location: East Preston, Nova Scotia, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 7:23 am Post subject: |
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| silverbulletuk wrote: |
The fact that the post-1990 syncros never received the 5-cyl (other than 2 prototypes) is telling...
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Yup, I suspect the longer transmission and hence longer span to the front mounting points made a difficult situation even worse. And then there is the fuel tank of course. Thanks again.
RonC |
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silverbulletuk
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Joined: February 02, 2010
Posts: 206
Location: NW Surrey, UK
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| Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 7:17 am Post subject: |
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No trouble at all. To my knowledge, all of the 2.5 and 2.6 buses had the brace fitted from the start, after the prototypes showed up the nasty tendency to crack and split their trans casings.
The fact that the post-1990 syncros never received the 5-cyl (other than 2 prototypes) is telling...
There's a lot more info posted by those who really know at www.syncrosa.co.za
Ian
_________________
1986 syncro twin-slider rhd, 3.2S Oettinger wbx6
1990 SA Microbus - Supercharged wbx going in with UN-1 trans.
www.025motorsport.com |
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snowsyncro
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Joined: January 11, 2009
Posts: 1557
Location: East Preston, Nova Scotia, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 6:48 am Post subject: |
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Great information, silverbulletuk, thanks for that. With a strong block and a strong transmission main case, most of the bending occurs at the bellhousing, as you noted. SA knew this of course, hence the SA bellhousing is much reinforced compared to the standard. You can see the addition of thick ribs to resist bellhousing flex:
And the new main housing would likely have been to make sure that portion was stiff enough as well. But, they must have underestimated, hence the 'SA brace' which came later.
Or did it? Note the presence of the large attachment boss at the top of the bellhousing. This was not present on the original. So, were they planning for the brace all along?
RonC |
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silverbulletuk
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Joined: February 02, 2010
Posts: 206
Location: NW Surrey, UK
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| Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 5:47 am Post subject: |
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If I may add this, regarding harmonic periods of 5-cylinder engines?
Rover found out through their experimental 5-cylinder engine research for a possible P6 model in the mid 1960's, that there was a choice of two acceptable firing orders that would work on a straight 5.
The engine could be made to either "rock" side-to-side, or "nod" end-to-end. With an inline engine fitted to a gearbox (or transaxle) the 1-2-4-5-3 gives the "nodding" action as the cylinders fire back and forth along the length of the engine, but the combined inertia of the long powertrain made it much easier to control this reaction.
This setup puts considerable strain on the engine/ trans interface, so necessitated the use of the engine nose mount and transmission brace in the T3 ZA, along with the use of a much denser sand-cast LM25 gear casing as opposed to the VW die-cast ones, if my info is correct.
Audi cars do, of course, have a massively buttressed transaxle housing to do the same job as the external brace.
FWIW, my 1995 2.6 Microbus has a good 200k on the clock (slightly erroneous as the speedo was swapped - badly - upon import to the UK in 2005) and had a full VWSA service book until 2003 @ 150k plus, all on the same 5-speed trans. It spent most of it's life in SA hauling a trailer from Harare to Capetown (on some pretty bad roads, I don't doubt) and its still going strong, although the 1-2 shift when cold is very poor these days.
The SA made 200Nm @ 3000 rpm when new, or 147 lb.ft in a bus weighing 1660kg (3660 lb) kerb weight, on a 4.57 f/d ratio.
_________________
1986 syncro twin-slider rhd, 3.2S Oettinger wbx6
1990 SA Microbus - Supercharged wbx going in with UN-1 trans.
www.025motorsport.com |
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denwood
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Joined: July 29, 2012
Posts: 1047
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:49 am Post subject: |
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Jon, the comments on 1st and 2nd order vibration, flywheel "imbalance" are consistent with the iseismometer plots you posted at various rpms. Very interesting to see that your SA contact has such a knowledge base on this topic. Interesting stuff.
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Cheers,
Dennis Wood
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snowsyncro
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Joined: January 11, 2009
Posts: 1557
Location: East Preston, Nova Scotia, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Mick Ord wrote: |
Hi there,
I have one of the 2.4D non turbo AAB engines, any ideas on how i can get a bit more power out of it ?
Thxs |
Sorry, just saw this question.
There is information here on improving the performance of the IDI diesels. Post back with any improvements that you make!
http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?board=6.0
RonC |
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kgold708
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Joined: April 16, 2011
Posts: 186
Location: Genoa IL
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:08 am Post subject: |
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I wish I had one to tear apart and really look at closely. I studied Aviation Maintence for a few years, did a stint in the AirForce working around aircraft, managed the parts dept. For a regional airline until 911, then got a job in non-destructive testing during the rebuild of a local oil refinery after an incident where improper welding techniques were found to be the cause of major structural failure, went back to school for auto/diesel/industrial tech and finding a REAL job has been difficult since the economy crashed. However the wife and I have been making babies at an ALARMING rate. We brought our first girl home today, I've felt drunk since the moment I saw her!
Sometime tomarrow I'll try to formulate a RATIONAL post on the subject of this thread, I've got a mere handful of sleep-hours in the last couple days! Mommy's in good health and Sophia is the most perfect creature in all of existance IMHO............. what am I typing about?...... Is the SA case you have completely uniform in color?
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ASE Master Tech.
ASE L1 Advanced engine performance specialist.
ASE L2 Advanced electronic diesel engine specialist. |
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Tristar Eric
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Joined: July 25, 2004
Posts: 1262
Location: Portland, Or
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 12:45 am Post subject: |
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Let me chime in...
I've been witness to a few TDI swaps. Watching the 17lb Kennedy flywheel eat Shaun's first transaxle, I decided to go with the 38lb Eurospec version on my personal conversion. All has been well so far with about 20k miles. I did have Daryl at AA add the oiling plates which I believe help.
My other finding has to do with the amount of torque that even a 2wd 091 trans can take. I've done a few WRX conversions putting down 225 to 275 ftlbs of torque. I feel even in the Syncro trans 200 ftlbs is the limit. My original WRX ate 3 transaxles. With my STI ( 350 ftlbs ) I went Porsche G50.
I drive my ALH TDI in my Doka pretty hard, I'm right at or slightly below the 200 ftlbs mark, and no issues yet. I also have to say that my driving style is different than most. I run stock axles and have never broken one ever.
Do some of us allow excess wheel spin? I see it all the time. Does the shock of a spinning wheel when it stops induce damage to the internals? Possibly.
Lets not overlook weight of the vehicle as well. A Syncro Westy fully geared out comes in near or over 6000 lbs. Add giant tires and now we are really pushing the little Syncro trannies.
Just a thought...
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Vanagon/Transporter flares here: www.terrawagen.com
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Alan Brase
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Joined: March 28, 2004
Posts: 4570
Location: Cedar Falls, Iowa
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| Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:16 pm Post subject: |
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| kgold708 wrote: |
I'll go on the record as saying that putting a 5cyl engine in a vanagon is probably not a good idea.....
This brings us to the trans issue, I don't think they just started mass producing 5cyl vanagons without considering the transmission. They considered the issue and decided the trans could handle the increased torque. Production was given the green light.
Transmissions started failing at an alarming rate! This prompted a huge response from VW, an outside company was contracted to investigate. I have no evidence but I think two different solutions were developed and implemented.
1. Internal transmission modifications to increase reliability, oiling plates, bearing retainer, etc.
2. External transmission modification, SA trans brace, the purpose of which is open for debate.
They implemented BOTH. |
I BELIEVE they made the late SA cases out of a different alloy. A lot more aluminum. AAP's I think they were called. I have one sitting on the floor and it is much SHINIER THAN ITS BRETHREN. And it is broken! By a cranked up AAZ, I think? The front gear that spins on the pinion shaft siezed on the pinion shaft, I think. Sounds to me like more a lube problem than too much torque. We shall see when i TAKE IT APART.
Also, that late SA 5 cylinder was 2.6 liter. Bigger than any other 5's that I know about, so it had a bit more torque than most other gassers except turbo's.
Al
_________________
Al Brase
Projects: 67 sunroof bug, 67 Porsche 912 Targa, 70 Westy
Dec 1955 Single Cab pickup WANT 15" BUS RIMS dated 8/55, thru 12/55
To New owners: 1969 doublecab, 1971 Dormobile
Vanagons:
80 P27 Westy JUL 1979, 3rd oldest known US
83 1.6TD Vanagon, 87 Wolfie Westy daily driver, swap meet home |
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Mick Ord
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Joined: April 26, 2008
Posts: 203
Location: Vancouver, BC
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| Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 8:16 pm Post subject: |
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Hi there,
I have one of the 2.4D non turbo AAB engines, any ideas on how i can get a bit more power out of it ?
Thxs
_________________
1991 Syncro Westy- 2.5 Suby
1989 Syncro Tristar ( sold)
1988 2wd Tristar- about to start resto/rebuild !! |
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