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sshulk
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Joined: August 29, 2008
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Location: Succasunna, NJ
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 Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:13 pm Post subject: Type 4 Conversion. Where to Start? |
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Ok, Maybe this has been answered before, but I am still trying to figure out how to search the forums LOL. Anyways, I was looking into converting my beetle to type 4. I was thinking like the conversion kits from the type 4 store? My question. Can I just buy any old type 4 motor like from a bus or a Porsche and it will work, or will some work, and some not work?
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bluebus86
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Joined: September 02, 2010
Posts: 11075
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:32 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 Conversion. Where to Start? |
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| sshulk wrote: |
| Ok, Maybe this has been answered before, but I am still trying to figure out how to search the forums LOL. Anyways, I was looking into converting my beetle to type 4. I was thinking like the conversion kits from the type 4 store? My question. Can I just buy any old type 4 motor like from a bus or a Porsche and it will work, or will some work, and some not work? |
post this on the engine forum for more replies.
different engines are a considerations, a bus one is made for a heavy, low geared bus, a 914 for a light high geared car. torque verses hp. the exhuast ports come in serveral shapes, and sizes, heads come with different porting, valve sizes, and compustion chamber volume. windage tray in 2 liter 914 motors is standard, but not in the 1.7 914 motor, counter wieghtedcrank? or not? low or high compression pistons, etc... of course your exhuast system has to mate to it, so your ports have to match ypur pipes. also consider what you will do for heat and defroaster. gasoline heater? intake ports also differ, big, small, 3 stud, 4 stud.
trashed heads are a problem, last I heard, not a supply of aftetmarket new heads as with type Is trick is too find good heads, not cracked ones. you cant buy new. and as stated, the ports vary in size and shape.
good luck Bug On, Bug More with a big powerful type IV!
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sshulk
Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2008
Posts: 694
Location: Succasunna, NJ
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:52 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 Conversion. Where to Start? |
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@bluebus86 Ok will post in other forum, thanks for the info!
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sb001
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Joined: May 19, 2011
Posts: 10458
Location: NW Arkansas
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:00 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 Conversion. Where to Start? |
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| sshulk wrote: |
| Ok, Maybe this has been answered before, but I am still trying to figure out how to search the forums LOL. Anyways, I was looking into converting my beetle to type 4. I was thinking like the conversion kits from the type 4 store? My question. Can I just buy any old type 4 motor like from a bus or a Porsche and it will work, or will some work, and some not work? |
I assume this is for your 72 super and NOT your 73 autostick? 
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sshulk
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Joined: August 29, 2008
Posts: 694
Location: Succasunna, NJ
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:09 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 Conversion. Where to Start? |
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| sb001 wrote: |
| I assume this is for your 72 super and NOT your 73 autostick? |
Not sure yet  
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sshulk
Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2008
Posts: 694
Location: Succasunna, NJ
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:18 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 Conversion. Where to Start? |
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In addition, I would most likley be starting at a short block engine from a 914 or bus, if it mattters. Cause im reading about the heads, and exhaust sizes, that doesnt really matter if im starting off with a short block then buy a rebuild kit? or does it?
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nextgen
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Location: CONGERS, N.Y.
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:00 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 Conversion. Where to Start? |
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Sshulk,
I wrote the T-4 manual back in 1990 and mostly hang out here and the T4 Fourm
http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewforum.php?f=1
When at the T-4 Fourun go to New to T-4 and you see all the different T-4 engine to use and what car has them. 914 411 and 412 are the best bet, all cases are the same. Buses are very heavy so their engine get the most beat up. There heads have to really be checked. You can't go wrong with a 1.7 engine to built up.
There is a lot of cross over posting between the two. A lot of my sales come from Europe were T-4 in bugs is big and was going strong about the time I made my first 914 2.0 bug. No Internet, a lot of my info was from phone calls to the editors of the Euro VW Magazines, VW Motoring, VW Australia and they ran articles on the Cali Style DIY conversions. My point you can also go to some Euro VW news groups. They are into some real T-4 monsters. Below is the Volkszone.
http://www.volkszone.com/VZi/index.php
Here is a fun video, the guy has some engine building skills so don't let him scare you off. The upright conversion can go on any T-4 mild or wild. T-4 in a light bug is very forgiving and run very cool.
Turn up the Volume -- The Venture's I think " Pipeline".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=deD2JxpUA48
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ach60 
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Joined: May 14, 2001
Posts: 4137
Location: Santa Maria
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:20 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 Conversion. Where to Start? |
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It may be that the type 4 is the baddest of the VW boxers.
But if that's true why did VW return to the type 1 to base with it's last boxer engine design?
The Biggest Baddest Type 1 from CB Performance
P/N 1187 2387cc (94 x 86) 220Hp Big Power Signature Kit
That being said, if you're building a type 4 with less then 2.2 litre displacement, then you're throwing money away.
So just how big of a motor do you want, and how much you want to spend.
http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/index.php/vw-type-1
http://fatperformance.com/Fat_Performance_Parts_Catalog.pdf
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23118
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:36 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 Conversion. Where to Start? |
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| bluebus86 wrote: |
| sshulk wrote: |
| Ok, Maybe this has been answered before, but I am still trying to figure out how to search the forums LOL. Anyways, I was looking into converting my beetle to type 4. I was thinking like the conversion kits from the type 4 store? My question. Can I just buy any old type 4 motor like from a bus or a Porsche and it will work, or will some work, and some not work? |
post this on the engine forum for more replies.
different engines are a considerations, a bus one is made for a heavy, low geared bus, a 914 for a light high geared car. torque verses hp. the exhuast ports come in serveral shapes, and sizes, heads come with different porting, valve sizes, and compustion chamber volume. windage tray in 2 liter 914 motors is standard, but not in the 1.7 914 motor, counter wieghtedcrank? or not? low or high compression pistons, etc... of course your exhuast system has to mate to it, so your ports have to match ypur pipes. also consider what you will do for heat and defroaster. gasoline heater? intake ports also differ, big, small, 3 stud, 4 stud.
trashed heads are a problem, last I heard, not a supply of aftetmarket new heads as with type Is trick is too find good heads, not cracked ones. you cant buy new. and as stated, the ports vary in size and shape.
good luck Bug On, Bug More with a big powerful type IV! |
Not quite on all of that. Firsf....there are readily available GOOD aftermarket heads...including brand new 2.0 914 specific castings....not just very expensive replicas made from new 1.8 castings.
As for "consideration".....it makes no difference which engine you start with unless its a late Vanagon case with the cast over breather. You will have to rebuild any of them and the only two considerations are....
1. whether you want to start with a 2.0L which had a 71mm stroke...different crank and rods....or a 1.7L or 1.8L...66mm stroke crank and rods. And there are several options for each from there.
2. Whether whichever you choose....came from a bus.....which creates junk from any motor that runs in it due to heavy weight, low gearing and poor aerodynamics.....or from a 411/412/914.....much lighter and higher gearing with virtually none of the overheating issues. All will do just some are more work.
Also....all 1.7l in the 411 and 412 came with the factory windage tray before the 914 even existed. The 914 1.7L should have had it as well.
What it came from at this point in time makes no real difference. Its a core engine.
The rest being noted......the stock 1.7L with EFI....put out 82 hp. I have tuned that upward with a better cam, valves, ignition, bump in compression, tweaks to fuel and better exhaust....to right at 100hp. With good carbs or aftermarket injection you can do better than that with a 1.7.
With a 2.0.....you can do a lot better especially since now you can buy new 914 specific 2.0 castings.
To those who always suggest type 1 instead.....why would you want an inferior metal case, with smaller galleys, needing "hoover mods" that came factory on a type 4, with no oil filter...that came factory on a type 4.....and a whole slew of other improvements that came on a type 4.......and why is the only answer to someone who wants to build a type 4....to build a type 1 as huge a possible? Is that all the finesse you can manage?
Ray |
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sshulk
Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2008
Posts: 694
Location: Succasunna, NJ
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| Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:29 am Post subject: Re: Type 4 Conversion. Where to Start? |
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Yeah I was thinking a 2.0 914 motor short block. I saw one for sale on ebay for around 300 + Shipping. Is something like this what I would need?
I do want to build a powerful type 4. def 2.0 or up.
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sshulk
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Posts: 694
Location: Succasunna, NJ
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| Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:35 am Post subject: Re: Type 4 Conversion. Where to Start? |
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will a used type 2.0 l 914 motor be enough for a big conversion kit for the type 4 store? In other words. If i just have a case, would I need to machine that or will it work with a rebuild kit?
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Mikedrevguy
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Joined: October 15, 2008
Posts: 2279
Location: No. Idaho
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| Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:05 am Post subject: Re: Type 4 Conversion. Where to Start? |
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That case can accommodate up to a 96m p/c if you want to go bigger, will need to have machined.
So far as crank goes, anything larger than a 78mm stroke wil need to be clearanced. I think the 78 is hit or miss, depending on the kit.
The 2270 kit I got from DRD was touted to need no.clearancing, and so far in mock-up, it’s been proven true. I’ll be paying closer attention once I get back on that part of the project.
Good luck.
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sshulk
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
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Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:57 am Post subject: Re: Type 4 Conversion. Where to Start? |
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| sshulk wrote: |
| What about a 1.7 L or 1.8L. What kind of power should I expect to get out of that. I see 1.7 Liter engine blocks going for like 300 and 2.0 for 1500 is that right? |
Understand please....what I am about to write....should only be disregarded.....of you are buying a RUNNING engine.....that you get to see run.....built by a known builder with documented mileage and parts with receipts.
Outside of that.....if what I just noted cannot be provided....all type 4 engines are to be considered "CORES".....salvage parts.
Also...914 engines for what you are doing..... have "0" added value unless they are in excellent AND running condition. The slight added value of a 914 specific engine comes from case number and number location....which may only be of value to a Porsche person doing a period restoration....or in the case of 914 specific 2.0L heads.....only if they are in superb low mileage condition.
While these 914 specific 2.0 heads were the best of the bunch in performance....they are prone to cracking and self destruction.....and the cost to have them properly checked and welded to repair...exceeds brand new casting 914 2.0L heads. They also require different sheet metal than any other type 4.
So unless you get a 914 2.0L engine core for very cheap with the 3 bolt heads....so you can check and possibly re-sell them.......do not waste the money on them. There is no benefit for you.
There is no difference in the engine case...between a 1.7L and 2.0L.
The only differences that make any difference when you are buying a "CORE" engine for a build.....is the crank and rods. The 2.0 used a different crank and rods than the 1.7L and 1.8L.
Any case accepts all cranks and rods. So.....you are not buying a 1.7L or 2.0L case. All cases can be anything you want. The camshafts are 100% junk and will always be shot or suspect on a type 4. You will not be using the camshaft that comes in the core.
Since you are doing a complete build....DO NOT spend money based in what the engine was and is.
If you buy a nice core engine that just happens to be a 1.7/1.8L.....but you really want a 2.0....just sell the 1.7/1.8L crank and rods and buy a 2.0L crank and rods. The bus 2.0 and 914 2.0...use the identical crank and rods and they are commonly available.
And.....if you buy a 2.0 bus engine core.....bear in mind.....its more prone to having been beat to death. Most bus cores will require an align bore. The only other benefits to say a 914 case or VW 411/412 case....is that most if them were not driven in an underpowered 4000 lb brick full of equipment with poor aerodynamics.
If you buy a complete engine....in order.....the best to start with for wear and tear are 1.7L from either a 411/412 or 914. Next in line a 1.8L from a 411/412 or 914. Next in line a 1.7L from a bus, a 1.8L from a bus. Next in line a 2.0L from a 914....if its dirt cheap. Last in line a 2.0L from a bus.
The above is just about wear and tear. All of the cases are equal.
There are a few things that you need to look out for on all type 4 cases.
As for output....as noted....the 1.7L with injection put out 82hp stock. The cam sucked and was made to work with the injection. There are much better cams out there right now. The type 4 store complete cam kits are SUPERB. Worth every penny.
If you are going twin carbs.....a 1.7L with a tight deck, better than stock ignition, 41x34 or 42x36 valves, one of several Web or Raby cams, a bump in compression up to about 8.5:1 or a little more and a decent header.....can net you right at 100 hp or slightly more.
That engine is also bulletproof. The same basic formula on a 1.8L will net you the equivalent or slightly better than what a well built type 1776 type 1 engine will....but with better longevity. It should be a 125k to 150K engine. Ray |
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sshulk
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Joined: August 29, 2008
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Location: Succasunna, NJ
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| Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:51 am Post subject: Re: Type 4 Conversion. Where to Start? |
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Wow great info thanks so much. I though the cases were different sizes. You cleared a lot up thanks so much.
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
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Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:13 am Post subject: Re: Type 4 Conversion. Where to Start? |
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| sshulk wrote: |
| Wow great info thanks so much. I though the cases were different sizes. You cleared a lot up thanks so much. |
Nope....the crank bores are the same...the cam bores are the same...and the cylinder spigot openings are the same....and check that last response on the 2.0L. I work on so few 2.0L....I just cannot accurately remember...but the 1.7L is 90mm, the 1.8L is 93mm both with the 66mm stroke...and the 2.0 is only 1mm larger at 94mm and gets its cc's with a slightly larger chamber and a 71mm stroke.
Its just the guts that change around. The exception to the rule is the vanagon cases ...which are also viable cases for rebuild...but you have to machine away the top of the oil breather IIRC because in the vanagon its cast over.
Look in the ShoptalkForums for some of the basics on "upright conversion"..which is what you are doing if its going in a beetle. If its going in a type 3....its not quite a drop in but very plug and play and you can use the stock cooling system.
Some of this may help
http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=90686
and here
http://www.nextgen-usa.com/
This collection of links...is bad-ass! and....has a short section of conversion information.
http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=109178
There is a lot of information in the Samba as well. Look under "upright conversion" as a search term. Ray |
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Wreck
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Joined: July 19, 2014
Posts: 1313
Location: Brisbane
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| Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 3:09 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 Conversion. Where to Start? |
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Joe Cali's book is a good place to start , if you don't have much in the way of fabrication skills you can get a fibre glass T1 upright kit from here .
http://www.sharpbuilt.com.au/sharpbuilt1/page11.htm. or if you can afford a DTM kit from Type$store.
If the core you get has a 210 mm or 215mm flywheel , it will fit a late T1 box with no clearancing needed ,and unless you have a boosted engine the standard clutch will be fine .
European motor works , Ham heads etc are good places to speak to about heads , which are one of the most important parts of the engine . AA pistons now have 2.0 914 bare castings , I would contact a few people about getting a set off these heads finished off somewhere .
The standard 71mm crank will reliably spin over 7000rpm if balanced well and the standard rods will handle pretty much anything you can do to them as long as they have good bolts fitted ,
One problem with type4's is the price of good headers . CSP , BAS and Turbo Thomas etc . |
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nextgen
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Location: CONGERS, N.Y.
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| Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:47 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 Conversion. Where to Start? |
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Ray covers all the bases! One of my old sales pitches from back in the 90's
Why built 1600. T-1 case up to 2.0 when a T-4 case 2.0 was Stock. As once compared, it cost less to rebuild a stock T-4 to 125hp that will easy to 150k then build a 1600 to the same HP and become less reliable as as it leaves it safe zone of 1700 to 1800 cc.
We been talking engine size, but what about ease of installation. T-4 bolts right up, no body cutting. So you can rebuild your T-1 as a spare in case you want to upgrade you T-4 even larger.
Check all the T-4 Videos on Youtube
Now some music from a Happy T-4 Builder!!
Speaker on High !!
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nextgen
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Culito
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| Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:59 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 Conversion. Where to Start? |
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Hijacking this thread to ask:
What is the largest P&C kit I can throw in a 1700 without mods to the crank, rods, heads, etc?
Something like this?
https://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=VWC-022-198-075-A
Just looking to throw something together for now - I'm expecting the OG cylinders to have some pitting / moisture damage from improper storage.
Thanks!
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