Oil Filter Mount Gasket 021-115-359A

[SGKent]

Wanted to throw this out there for those who have built type IV engines.

There is a gasket that has been discussed lightly within threads a few times, but I could not find a definitive thread on it so here goes.

First a background. In 2011 I built the first T4 engine for this 1977bus. While on the engine stand, I installed the filter mount using the gasket in the VR kit, and some Gasgacinch. I was standing in the garage 20 minutes or so later and I heard a strange loud snap come from the area of the engine. An investigation yielded that the filter mount was in two pieces, snapped about a 1/4 of the way between the two nuts. Both had been tightened to spec. Looking further, the gasket had blown out on the thin side, and the mount had snapped along that line where the gasket had blown out. I replaced the mount with another I had, made sure the surface was flat, and as I slowly tightened down the thin area of the gasket began to deform and push out. I bought a package of just that gasket and tried different sealers on it, each time the result was the same. Dry the gasket did not migrate, but any sealer I had forced it to migrate outwards - where continued tightening would have ruptured it. Finally I put it on dry and it held.

Lately I have been thinking about this gasket because I have an oil weep in that area. There have been other threads here where that gasket has failed on people. What I have been thinking about was making that part of the gasket wider so that the extra strength was on the outside of the mount. My thought is that would give lateral strength to the thin area, and perhaps keep it from moving outwards when tightened. Has anyone tried this, or come up with another solution? Loctite 518 might work but I am a bit leary of trying that due to the stresses on the oil mount. I am thinking the sealing has to be non-hardening. Below in first the photo is the area I am thinking of widening by making a gasket from standard gasket paper and a trace. The second photo is what the width would be with the mod. Opinions please. The red line is where it blows out when tightened, and the blue line is where it snapped in 2011.

_________________
"Most people don't know what they're doing, and a lot of them are really good at it." - George Carlin

[lil-jinx]

maybe use gasket glue to stick the gasket to the filter mount.
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https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=620186
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=668799
1974 Bay Westfalia. she likes to be called Ethel.
1968 Dune Buggy sold dec 2024

1974 parts bus
A smart man learns from his mistakes,a very smart man learns from other's mistakes.

[SGKent]

[lil-jinx]

we used 3m spray adhesive at my former work place ,you spray it on one surface and let it dry to tacky then place the gasket on it,once it's stuck it won,t move,
I use it on my valve covers to stick the gasket to the cover,so the gasket don.t get squeezed out,
_________________
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=620186
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=668799
1974 Bay Westfalia. she likes to be called Ethel.
1968 Dune Buggy sold dec 2024

1974 parts bus
A smart man learns from his mistakes,a very smart man learns from other's mistakes.

[SGKent]

are we talking like the upholstery spray used on headliners etc? What I was hoping to find is a way to use a sealer on both sided and not have it blow out. Because there is oil pressure and thin oil present, just a paper gasket is not the perfect solution, but that is what I have been using due to the seals blowing out if sealer is put on them. I was thinking if they were wider in that area they would not be as prone to deform.
_________________
"Most people don't know what they're doing, and a lot of them are really good at it." - George Carlin

[lil-jinx]

yes i thats is what we used multi purpose spray adhesive,used it on paper type oil pan gaskets on older cummins ,and any where there was a paper gasket,
when using just silicone on a gasket i would put it on as thin as possible and let it skin over before installing,when using silicone all the old silicone must be removed,silicone won't stick to cured silicone very well.
_________________
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=620186
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=668799
1974 Bay Westfalia. she likes to be called Ethel.
1968 Dune Buggy sold dec 2024

1974 parts bus
A smart man learns from his mistakes,a very smart man learns from other's mistakes.

[lil-jinx]

https://cwnuclear.com/brands/ap-services/sealoe/ca...ange-Faces
_________________
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=620186
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=668799
1974 Bay Westfalia. she likes to be called Ethel.
1968 Dune Buggy sold dec 2024

1974 parts bus
A smart man learns from his mistakes,a very smart man learns from other's mistakes.

[SGKent]

same stuff used in upholstery. Similar to the old formula of Gasgacinch before CARB got to the formula but stickier
_________________
"Most people don't know what they're doing, and a lot of them are really good at it." - George Carlin

[SGKent]

good news is that the gasket does not appear to have leaked in use so maybe dry is the solution.
_________________
"Most people don't know what they're doing, and a lot of them are really good at it." - George Carlin

[raygreenwood]

Yes, the gasket squirms. If you try to stop it from squirming with pressure you will break the mount. Two things.

1. Make sure the mounting face is flat. Then make sure the two surfaces where the nuts tighten to are flat and square lf the studs are slanted or the faces where the nuts contact or the sealing face are out of square....these are the only things than can cause that mount to warp and crack.

2. They make stuff just for this.

Adhere the gasket to the mount...flat....with just enough pressure to contact. Use a drying gasket shellac. Solvent based.
Indian head works well enough. Motoseal or Yamabond even better because they are a solvent based silicone. Think like an air curing RTV.

Motoseal is essentially very much like Permatex Ultra Gray when dry. But....because its ~60% solvent, when you apply a thin smooth layer, once it drys it is 60% thinner.

It's both an adhesive and a sealant. I also roll or brush on a layer on the case side as thin as possible. It dries to a 40 durometer layer less than 0.001" thick to both seal the gasket face so oil does not wick laterally and it gives a very thin compression sealing layer.

And/or.....if you make sure the sealing face of the mount is flat and the sealing face on the case is flat, roll on a layer of motoseal or yamabond. Let dry. Repeat. Let dry. Repeat.
Get about three layers on and you will have a perfectly smooth gasket layer that is about 0.003" to 0.005" thick. Just bolt it up.

Ray

[SGKent]

[raygreenwood]

[SGKent]

ok
_________________
"Most people don't know what they're doing, and a lot of them are really good at it." - George Carlin

[wagen19]

Very good explanation!

Remembering disassembling type 4 engines: just that gasket allways made problems to remove from surfaces. It ever felt, it was glued on. So I think, that material is a special kind for sealing against oil under pressure. Further, I never have seen a leak there. (when affixed dry by factory)
What says VW handbook?
Imo, in most cases any kind of chemical or liquid sealant makes no problem, or even helps, but in just that case, with that kind of gasket around the pessurized oil gallery, it should better be affixed dry and not overtorqued.

[SGKent]

wagen19 I read your post and I thank you. In the process you just led me to something that I never noticed. Maybe Ray, or Scott, Robbie, Busdaddy someone will have an answer.

I think we have been screwed over on this gasket and anyone who has had a leak on it is owed an apology by VW. The orange factory manual shows a case with two holes. The Bentley shows two oil holes. The 914 manual shows two holes. My case has two oil holes. The mount has two oil holes. DID THE ORIGINAL GASKET NOT HAVE THE HOLE FOR A THIRD PASSAGE?

The gasket being sold has that long thin area. Why? I am really puzzled now. When and why was this passage added? The fiche calls for 021-115-359A. Every photo of one has the third unused passage. The orange factory manual calls for both 14 ft lbs the 18ft lbs in another spot, but neither Bentley or the 914 factory manual have a torque for those nuts.

Every one has this gasket below but the case doesn't need the third passage that causes all the problems. Why is it there? Did the factory experience broken oil filter mounts and weaken the middle of the gasket so it could crush easier? Was there an engine that had this passage? The factory photo (second photo) shows a gasket WITHOUT the passage. Anyone know the history on this passage and change?

I also found these old threads re the mount

[wagen19]

[SGKent]

take a look again. I put an arrow right to it. That said, you probably found the answer in the engine numbers. I am guessing that without the A it had no third passage but with the A it does. Why I don't know. The engine is out and the cooler off so I should be able to get to both nuts. Worst case is a good wobble head extension. Maybe put sealant just around the holes that flow oil, like paint it on with a model brush. Thinking yamabond or something like that. Aviation gasket sealer maybe. Have to think it over in the morning. A crows foot at 90 degrees would work too.

_________________
"Most people don't know what they're doing, and a lot of them are really good at it." - George Carlin

[raygreenwood]

I can tell you for sure that the 411 and 412 gaskets that I have seen.....on the vehicles....not in gasket kits, that are KNOWN to have come from the factory at least on 411 and 412 cars....did NOT have the 3rd hole.

The first time I remember seeing them is in gasket sets.....starting around 1980.

There are a couple of things to keep in mind here. The better gaskets are the stiffer gaskets. The stiffer gaskets are stiffer because they are coated both sides. Through the years there was a lot of variation in gaskets in the afterkarket kits like Victor Reinz, Cofap and Elring. Some were coated both sides, some were coated one side and some were not coated at all. Those that are not coated also had issues with shelf life span if stored improperly or if there were air leaks in the package. The uncoated gaskets absorb moisture and the gaskets curl and sometimes swell or shrink.

If you understand that last point....you can understand the purpose of the surface coating on gaskets. It makes the gasket harder, smoother and flatter and seals the surface.

The coating they put on these gaskets also helps to stabilize and strengthen thinner gasket material.

The purpose of "gasket" dressing is exactly this....to seal the surface. Most old school "gasket dressing" was designed to be applied and then dried....BEFORE...installing the gasket.

Yes, using the gaskets dry on gaskets this small is the best way to go because as I mentioned, wet sealer makes the gasket squirm under pressure.

Treat the gasket with a sealer or dressing (especially if it does not have coated surfaces) ....and let it DRY before install. That is how I have found these to be the most leak free. Ray

[Wildthings]

For myself I don't think I have ever used sealant on this gasket, but if the gasket is the problem then maybe eliminate the gasket and just use a judicious amount of sealant by itself.

[SGKent]