EJ25 JDM that I've put 25,000 miles on (and took it apart!)

[Sodo]

Interesting difference of opinions here.
Subaru 2007 says (new) ring gap should be .008"-.014"
Mahle (cast iron) says MINIMUM .016"

When I measure the Mahle gap, .015 goes in readily. and .016 can be jammed in but not fully.
That's pretty perfect for Mahle's specs.

======

The Mahle oil rings look kinda wimpy, but the expander does the deed.
The piston has resistance with just a Mahle oil ring on.
Whereas the (used) Subaru oil ring had almost no resistance.

So ..... my old Subaru compression rings end gaps (.012 & .013) are still within the 'new' specs ---->.014.
There's something to be said for re-using the Subaru compression rings, which are seated, and had great compression, no blow-by, no apparent PCV problems.
But do rings spin? Once I've removed them, will they still be 'seated' if I put them back in?
Why would Subaru tell you to take them out measure the gaps if you couldn't put them back in?
It seems that you can do this.

So what about using the original Subaru compression rings and replacing the oil ring with the Mahle?

I know what you're thinking....... that $1600 block for $2420 doesn't sound all that bad....

$2420 (and no warranty) +$228 timing belt kit + $60 head gaskets + $900 heads rebuild
= $3650

vs

$100 of rings +$330 timing belt kit, gaskets + $900 heads rebuild
= $1330.

$3650 vs $1330 hmmm
_________________


'90 Westy EJ25, NEW oil rings (!) 2Peloquins, 3knobs, SyncroShop pressure-oiled pinion-bearing & GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox.
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered original gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb

[MarkWard]

Rings should rotate in their lands during operation. The Subaru oil ring is staked and should not rotate. Something the Subaru engine builders decided on. I don’t see a reason not to mix and match if your stock ring gaps are in spec.

Think how much you’re gaining for when you install the short block on the next go around.

[tencentlife]

I didn't know before that Subaru staked the oil rings, but there's the root cause of all your Suby oil drinkers. What an idiotic design.
_________________
Shop for unique and useful Vanagon accessories at the Vanistan shop:
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Please don't PM here, I will not reply.

Experience is death to doctrine.

[IdahoDoug]

Does seem like asking for it. Are the aftermarket rings the same staked design?
_________________
1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1993 Toyota LandCruiser, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader

[MarkWard]

[Sodo]

Subaru engineers are probably dumber than a box o'hammers.
Well, maybe not that dumb - but surely dumber than us Samba stars.

The tiny, and lazy oil ring is likely a bid to increase fleet fuel mileage by reducing friction losses.
The difference in resistance is significant.

The old Subaru oil ring feels like there's nothing there.
The new Mahle oil ring has a lot more resistance in the bore.
Clearly the Mahle is going to scrape oil better.

The Mahle oil ring is NOT staked and has a sheet of paper that says "NEW INFORMATION".
It looks like a generic sheet tending to lots of partnumbers.

[MarkWard]

Not to repeat myself too much, the only staked rings I’ve come across were on 2 strokes. They are trying to prevent a ring gap from hanging on a port opening. At least that’s my understanding.

From the beginning of this thread, what really caught my eye was the vertical stains on the pistons and cylinders. That’s something I’ve never seen before. Using the non staked oil rings, including the 1 inch spacing the directions specify, where the extender ends meet, I’d try to not have a gap over one of the ports.

Also, I don’t always follow manufacturer ring positioning. I set end gaps 180 off each other on the wrist pin side of the piston vs the thrust surfaces of the piston. I think VW recommends 120 degrees. In a boxer engine, I’d not want any gaps at the bottom of the piston as it sits in the cylinder. These are my preferences based on my experiences. Not saying they are correct for everyone.

[Sodo]

Agreed on the 2-stroke, but it's not relevant anyway.
Aside from the total-loss lubrication aspects. ....

I inserted pistons into cylinders,,,,,, with oil-rings:

Used Subaru (super easy piston movement) top oil ring keyed
New Mahle (noticeably more ring-friction) not keyed
New Hastings (~25% more ring-friction than Mahle) top oil ring keyed

So....... having been traumatized by oil-drinking.
And 11BC2's hard recommendation on Hastings....
I'm inclined to use the Hastings oil rings.

Where $60 on the Mahle rings was an "educational expense".
Or perhaps "Internet Expense" to keep you all interested so I can have some dialogue and draw out some experience here & there.

==================

So.....

What do you all think of my proposal to put the old Subaru compression rings back in?

They are well within the service limits specified in the Subaru manual.
AND
They are bedded in
and compression was real good.
I suppose there would be "no break-in period"
and no special oils etc.

I have new Mahle cast iron rings (as "the anti-hone feller" Pete Snidal recommended) but their ring gap is bigger than the Used Subaru rings.

I have new Hastings compression rings, but they're chrome, and likely require honing.
_________________


'90 Westy EJ25, NEW oil rings (!) 2Peloquins, 3knobs, SyncroShop pressure-oiled pinion-bearing & GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox.
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered original gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb

[tjet]

I'd go with the original rings vs the new ones as long as they are good. Do you have them identified which cylinder & direction them came out of?

[skills@eurocarsplus]

That Mahle "new information" deal is because subaru had a shit ton of revisions on this, including updated pistons.

This is what you get when you don't have a VIN

Anyway, I'm done commenting on this stuff anymore. evidently someone called my Subaru dealer and wanted a short block at my cost. Of course they got laughed out of the place but still...whoever called on MY account is a total pile of shit.

Had to be someone here as I posted the cost in the past. Whoever you are, thanks for trying to fuck up the way I feed my family....douchebag....
_________________

[Sodo]

Misleading information causes trouble for members too.
Valid cost + value discussion is important to Samba members.

I have my rebuilt heads but forgot to order head gaskets dangit !
Who has 'knowledge' of head gasket brands / suitability?
_________________


'90 Westy EJ25, NEW oil rings (!) 2Peloquins, 3knobs, SyncroShop pressure-oiled pinion-bearing & GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox.
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered original gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb

[fxr]

Subaru MLS gaskets work OK.
_________________
Jim Crowther
1984 1.9l EJ22 Westy Wolfsburg Edition
Vespa GTS 300

[alaskadan]

You can go pick up 6 star gaskets at all wheel drive auto.

[dobryan]

[E1]

[skills@eurocarsplus]

[E1]

[Sodo]

Skills your advice is in line with every professional who has weighed in.
Pre-markup business pricing was a brain-fart though.
And stifled the valuation as outlier, un-available pricing always does.

If anyone called your local Subaru dealer it was probably your local (pro) competitor. Don't blame us.
You like to write brash and make a splash, and in a public discussion, is a risk. Nobody buys that you're "hurt", its all part of the conversational method.

E1 .....do you NEED to face members off against each other? What's your goal here? Maybe start your own threads for your goals.
Can't you do this by Private Message in the background and let members focus on the project?

I think (hope) members are getting some value from this discussion if it can stay real and on-topic. Personality factors as 'entertainment' can be fun - if positive.
Positive, like MarkWard. He has his druthers but he adds valuable experience.
Mtnhome crosslinking to the anti-Hone heretic was valuable too.
What can't be fun about some feller flogging a Re-Ring?
Pull up a chair!

How many would REALLY be interested if I just rolled this lump over the edge and dropped $2420 on a new Subaru block?
You'd wanna see pics of it, right?
Oooooo shiny!

Repairing the valves is a given and was double what i expected (like everything in reality-numbers).
Going one step deeper and changing the oil-rings is valid too.
I waited a little for someone to tell me which Oil rings might be the best but nobody provided such, so I had to buy some and get my own info,
It cost $100 for two sets of new rings (cheap information!), and some time.

If I didn't try this, I'm positive you all would be disappointed in me.

======= back on topic =======

Current status is:
I'm just putting the Subaru (compression) rings back in, because they had good compression, were already bedded-in, and were within Subaru specs for re-use.
But I'm using the new Hastings oil rings (only the oil rings).
Putting the pistons back in today (I think).
I'm thinking that there is no "break-in ritual" required.


Link
Hopefully ridding me of this ritual
.....or at least ......reducing the frequency.
_________________


'90 Westy EJ25, NEW oil rings (!) 2Peloquins, 3knobs, SyncroShop pressure-oiled pinion-bearing & GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox.
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered original gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb

[E1]

[Sodo]

Not every bloody thing.
Just where I think there was a technical detail that members need to know. Sorry for that.
But that is the nature of a technical discussion.
People need to get their vans fixed.
Please look at from a technical point of view rather than emotional.
And I'll keep the emotional part in mind for the future,
and try to ensure sure the technical detail actually helps advance the project at-hand.

If my re-oil-ring project works.... my brother has dibs on the 2 qt flask
He's a hardhead too, but has a good job, not much spare time.
He 's a candidate for the new Subaru short-block method.....
_________________


'90 Westy EJ25, NEW oil rings (!) 2Peloquins, 3knobs, SyncroShop pressure-oiled pinion-bearing & GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox.
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered original gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb