oil leak T4 anyone been here?

[aeromech]

She came home today
_________________
Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
VW Jetta
VW Passat
Capable of leaping tall buildings in a single bound

[Clatter]

Why not Robbie or Colin?
You didn't piss them off, did you?
Not good to burn bridges...

How about Stu?

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Bus Motor Build

I have excellent news for the world...
There is no such thing as patina.
It does not exist!

[SGKent]

back a year later. I pulled the engine out finally. Waited until it passed smog a couple months ago. My back and neck are so stiff from this arthritis what a pain it was doing many of the bolts by touch instead of being able to look at them.

In answer to Steve. I piss everyone off, sometimes intentionally to make them think, but they still call me when they want something. Of course we sometimes called that fair weather friends when I was younger. Colin offered but he has not been doing his tour thing the last few years, and the cost in gas, oil, tires and time is more than the $4K I could offer someone for the help. Robbie prefers to earn money giving advise remotely unless a party is involved. Stu got married and got a real career.

We don't have a lot of Samba members here in the Sacramento area anymore. And I would imagine those who are here, are pretty busy with work and spend their spare time with their families, not working on someone else's bus. While there is a Bug crowd here, even with that, I've helped people whom I worked with by building their engines for their kids, etc., because they could not find anyone else who would help them, and the commercial motors were too expensive for them.

Now to go back out and try to separate the engine and trans. I honestly don't know if I have the strength to do it. Pain was pretty bad just getting the engine out. Getting old sucks. 40 years ago I could pick up a 427 block and toss it in the Sunnen CK-10 honing machine, or carry it across the shop. Today not even close.

But the engine and trans are out and off to find the leak. I think it is either the oil filter holder or the gallery plug near there.
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"Most people don't know what they're doing, and a lot of them are really good at it." - George Carlin

[SGKent]

it is apart. Have some big ole ugly bruises and blood blisters from the anti-coagulant where my arm hit things, but it is apart. Will put it on the engine stand tomorrow with the cherry picker, and try to get some UV photos of the dye. I think putting the trans and engine back together will be the challenge as some of the drugs they have me on take away muscle strength, even with exercise. Oh well. Done for the day. Thank the Lord for pain pills. There are some buddies here who come over once in awhile to help, I am sure they will be available even though they are not into VWs.
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"Most people don't know what they're doing, and a lot of them are really good at it." - George Carlin

[SGKent]

engine stand, cherry picker and engine balancer in garage and ready to go. Wiped down and hydraulic ram greased. Time for a new cover though. Even had time for a hair cut today. I pay my barber like I would want to be paid so he is always happy to see me. He tells me that most of his other clients are looking for him to work at $20 an hour, then they drive off in nice cars and tell him about all the new toys they have. Doesn't seem right, so the morale is, pay your barber what your time is worth when you bill others. Time to cool down from edging and blowing the grass clippings off the side walk and driveway. Time to go out and put the engine on the stand. Probably pull the flywheel off first to see where that oil is actually coming from. In the past it has been at the part line above the flywheel seal. Below is a photo from a prior build where the seal was dry except for a thin line extending along the upper part line. We'll see if the dye is at that spot again.

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"Most people don't know what they're doing, and a lot of them are really good at it." - George Carlin

[SGKent]

flywheel and clutch off, engine on engine stand. Worse than planned for. I used Loctite thread sealant, the good kind with the proper cleaning, primer, and activator for aluminum, when I built the engine. All the gallery plugs show small signs of weeping when hit with the UV light which sets off the fluorescein dye. My advise to anyone who reads this, do not use the Loctite threadlock on a bay engine. It came right from Henkel so I know it is not counterfeit. This is what happens when a state passes laws that eliminate all the known good sealers etc., because Air Resources Board says they have too many volatiles in them, or some chemical in them is known to cause cancer when a mouse eats 20 gallons of it in a week and dies on a lab table where some graduate student needs to write a paper to pass the class so they invent a problem where there was none. There are gasket sealers that 40 years ago always worked. You can't buy them anymore because even if the name survives, everything is a new formula to make CARB happy.
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"Most people don't know what they're doing, and a lot of them are really good at it." - George Carlin

[skills@eurocarsplus]

What sealant did you use? I just went thru this on a T4 I installed and the 'well known builder' used this white pasty shit and every fucking plug leaked that he did

I used a Loctite product (I'll look at the bottle next time I'm in the shop) and everything is bone dry
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[Globedog12]

[SGKent]

I would not use RTV. Here is why. When I built my first Type 4 engine (and I had built many type 1 engines) I put a really light smear of RTV on the outside edge of the orange silicone type seal. In the past when it was available I used to use some permatex stuff that was heavier duty than the #2 or aviation type sealer. So I put the seal in, looked down a minute later and said, did that thing move out? So I watched it for like 1/2 hour and it slowly migrated out. Never would have known it if I put the flywheel on. The RTV is too slippery when you have the silicone seal, it does not adhere to it, so it acts like a lubricant. My suggestion is some other kind of sealer, just at the part line and maybe just the outer mm of the seal, the last part to go in. Measure the depth of the seal and that will tell you how it will sit. Let it be dry on the inside and just a mm of non-hardening sealer on the outside. I would probably use one of these.

I plan to use this on the gallery plugs. Peterbuilt trucks uses it on their engines. https://www.assemblymag.com/articles/83514-anaerobic-sealing-compound-keeps-big-rigs-on-the-road

It is Mil spec and is good from -65 to 450F. Designed for coarse thread piping and plugs up to 2". I PRAY it will work better than the Loctite or PTFE did. Really tired of fighting leaky gallery plugs - even tiny weeps. I want dry. The Hernon stuff doesn't come in until Monday, and that is the day I have heart surgery so I don't know how soon I will be back to working on it. Probably won't do anything until after the doctor releases me to work on things. Somewhat troubling because one paternal uncle and my paternal grandfather had strokes, and now I have afib which leads to strokes so I don't even know if I will be able to finish this. I had to give Cathy directions tonight how to get a hold of people to put it back together if I can't work on it. Really a hassle. I am blaming it on that loctite, I want to say #567. I read tonight in the 567 specs it is only "oil tolerant." What does that mean? This stuff should be better and it is supposed to be "unaffected" by oil and gasoline etc..

[Globedog12]

So leave the leading or inside edge dry? I always thought some sort of lube was needed. Won’t a dry seal be harder to seat and more likely to pinch or deform?
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1976 VW Type 2 Original fuel injection

[SGKent]

worst case is wipe the inside of the outside with a little engine oil, like one drop over the whole thing. Use sealer on the outside 1mm or so of the outside. You'll have to figure out what that will be because the seal will probably not go all the way in. This is how I did the flywheel seal on this bus and it is dry.

You tap the seal in a little with say a piece of oak block so start it then tap a little at a time all the way around it over and over until it is in. Then lube the inside of the seal, making sure the spring did not fall out. Check your end play and you are good to go. Don't forget to grease the pilot bearing a little if you have a manual transmission.
_________________
"Most people don't know what they're doing, and a lot of them are really good at it." - George Carlin

[aeromech]

Good luck Steve. As far as California banned products I’ve found ordering through eBay works most of the time.

Brake cleaner
Degreaser
Paint primer
MEK
_________________
Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
VW Jetta
VW Passat
Capable of leaping tall buildings in a single bound

[SGKent]

here are several of the leaks. Tin has to come off to get to all the plugs. As indicated, heart surgery is Monday so I do not know when I will get back to it, or what sealant I will use. See https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=739734 for the discussion on the sealants used on these two cases. Main Oil seal is dry. Now I am wondering if a lot of us are suffering from gallery plugs slowly weeping, and not main oil seal leaks. Flywheel has no dye on it either, front or back.

_________________
"Most people don't know what they're doing, and a lot of them are really good at it." - George Carlin

[lil-jinx]

Good luck with the surgery, hope it all goes as planned
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https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=620186
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1974 Bay Westfalia. she likes to be called Ethel.
1968 Dune Buggy sold dec 2024

1974 parts bus
A smart man learns from his mistakes,a very smart man learns from other's mistakes.

[lil-jinx]

Packing a little grease in the seal will help keep the spring in place,as you drive the seal in
_________________
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=620186
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=668799
1974 Bay Westfalia. she likes to be called Ethel.
1968 Dune Buggy sold dec 2024

1974 parts bus
A smart man learns from his mistakes,a very smart man learns from other's mistakes.

[SGKent]

[APPLEGREENVW]

Jake Raby great info, about the flywheel seal and how to modify the type 4 case to avoid oil leaks. Jake has videos on his facebook page.
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Parts for sale https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/search.php?username=APPLEGREENVW

02/76 Beetle sedan

[SGKent]

[Jalabert]

Sample size of one for using RTV. I replaced this seal about 15 years / 45,000 miles ago. Light smear of RTV as recommended to me by a mine engineer who'd used the industrial versions of these in South Africa. Also taught me how to pull the old seal by putting self-tappers into it and pulling it out that way. Haven't pulled this one yet, we'll see if the addition of RTV makes it more of a bitch.

I would have thought that blue hylomar would be quite good in this application too?

Best of luck with the surgery Steve. Sure you will be back on your feet better than ever.

Untitled by Simon Bishop, on Flickr
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'73 westy, 1700 type 4 with 34icts

[SGKent]

thank you for the kind words.

You have the two color seal, the outer part of it grabs the case better than the full orange seal that is sold now. RTV on the full orange ones acts like a lubricant, and the seal just slowly pops out. Years ago when we had seals like you do, I used to use RTV on them sometimes successfully. We used to have the same issue on silicone V 8 intake manifold seals. They would move with silicone on them. We'd put just a dab at the edges, and sometimes that was even too much.
_________________
"Most people don't know what they're doing, and a lot of them are really good at it." - George Carlin