Expensive-sounding noise, time for a Subaru? heh

[Abscate]

Sunk or lost seat. No damage. That’s because you spend your life worrying about, and helping others, and the Creator smiles on you.
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[vwwestyman]

If I can pull on the valve end/spring without the stem coming out or wiggling around, can I relatively safely guess that the end wasn't bouncing around in the cylinder?
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Dave Cook

President, Wild Westerner Club

1978 Champagne Edition Westy, repowered to '97 Jetta TDI
1973 Wild Westerner
My Thing

[Wildthings]

If you have a valve head and a seat loose in the cylinder I would think you would be hearing a loud metallic noise and that the engine would have bent a rod and/or locked up.

It will be interesting to see what you find.

[raygreenwood]

[SGKent]

edit. wrong photo. Not the OP's.
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"Most people don't know what they're doing, and a lot of them are really good at it." - George Carlin

[vwwestyman]

I wouldn't have ever described the noise as quite metallic. More like an exaggerated/louder version of the noise when the Bus has sat for a while and the lifters aren't pumped up.

Spark plug had no obvious damage, and they are the tri-tip type, so it kinda seems like it that might be even more susceptible to damage if there were bits flying around in the cylinder.

Also, the pushrod was not obviously bent upon removal, though I didn't roll it on glass or anything, just pulled it out and set inside the bus for the moment.
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Dave Cook

President, Wild Westerner Club

1978 Champagne Edition Westy, repowered to '97 Jetta TDI
1973 Wild Westerner
My Thing

[W1K1]

A dropped valve guide can make a heck of a racket with very little debris, sometimes there is lots of smoke
Didn’t touch the plug either

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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/jim_martin_engine_build.php

1973 super
1965 squareback 1500E
1971 bay window westy- subi swap

[vwwestyman]

Current state, as of last night.

It's been difficult finding time to work on this, while also feeling the necessity to hurry (with people wanting to book us/the bus for shave ice selling!)

Got the engine out yesterday morning with a rare time off from clients. Did a bit of de-greasing with the hope that will make work a tad more pleasant.

Will get off a bit early tomorrow; hope to make more progress then and at least get the one head removed. I hope to be able to do that tonight, but that hope feels like a bit of a pipe dream, especially if a certain 4.5 year old doesn't want to go to bed easily.

I hoped to get more work done on it last night, but we had some friends over for shave ice. Silas' old daycare closed a couple months ago and he was missing his playmates, so they came over for a bit.

_________________
Dave Cook

President, Wild Westerner Club

1978 Champagne Edition Westy, repowered to '97 Jetta TDI
1973 Wild Westerner
My Thing

[vwwestyman]

Any recommended sources for heads? Recall that this engine is out of an aircooled Vanagon.
_________________
Dave Cook

President, Wild Westerner Club

1978 Champagne Edition Westy, repowered to '97 Jetta TDI
1973 Wild Westerner
My Thing

[vwwestyman]

These any good?

It seems like a familiar name... Though I thought I'd also seen that they still need some reworking before being used? I could easily be thinking of something else. Ad says they're ready to install.

https://aapistons.com/products/aa-2-0l-type-4-airc...7167162447
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Dave Cook

President, Wild Westerner Club

1978 Champagne Edition Westy, repowered to '97 Jetta TDI
1973 Wild Westerner
My Thing

[jjvincent]

Install a Subaru motor. They never blow up. I have got over the last year, two Foresters with grenaded motors where I put in used ones. Probably just a freak occurrence. Since you can get those for free and used motor costs around $500 then once done and cleaning it up you have a $5K vehicle, I feel bad because that gravy train has stopped since Subaru motors never go south.

[vwmaniaman]

Sounds to me like a broken spring not a serious internal problem.
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Working on a VW is like fun with a friend!
65 Beetle
75 Westy "Pumpkin Van"
86 Westy "Brown Betty"
87 Cabrio

[vwwestyman]

Well, shit.

I can see a little gap in the valve seat(?) at about 11:00, I suppose that is probably the source of the bit of metal that is embedded in the head.

I'd be tempted to try to smooth out the dents in the piston, except for that one big divot near the edge seems like that would make it riskier than otherwise...

Amazingly, it doesn't really seem like the cylinder was catastrophically damaged. I don't see any scratches. The light spot was likely caused by the bit of metal; it is detectible with a fingernail, but not a catch.

...I'm crazy to consider smoothing things out and running the piston, right?

Is it crazy to try to find a used piston, a set of heads, and throw the engine back together?

At least then I could get it back on the road for local use with the shave ice stuff.
_________________
Dave Cook

President, Wild Westerner Club

1978 Champagne Edition Westy, repowered to '97 Jetta TDI
1973 Wild Westerner
My Thing

[67rustavenger]

Well that's a first for me to see. Wow!

It's risky reusing the piston, IMO.
Remove the cylinder and see if the top ring groove has been crushed by the broken valve seat. That will tell ya if it needs replacement.

P&C's are cheap.

I get that you are making an effort to get the bus back on the road for your side gig. If it's only gonna be used around town, you might get away with you plan above. But, it's risky.
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I have learned over the years.
Cheap parts are gonna disappoint you.
Buy Once, Cry Once!

There's never enough time to do it right the first time. But there's always enough time to do it thrice.
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo!

[SGKent]

piston toast. Head toast. Not worth trying to repair those parts. If the Cylinder and piston are original then they are probably Kolbenschmidt, and you might be able to buy a single used one and re-ring it, being somewhat close in weight. I would probably hone all the cylinders and replace the rings, try to find an individual that matched. Or buy a new set of PCs. As to heads, if it were me, I would call Len and tell him, "Len I need a set of (square port / oval port whatever they are) heads for a 197X bus. I know you hate working on that stuff but what would it cost me for a set that I can trust?" Then give him what he wants if he will do it. What he hates is to spend time on the phone answering question after question that takes him away from all the other jobs he has going on. Whomever you get heads from, have the valves back cut.
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"Most people don't know what they're doing, and a lot of them are really good at it." - George Carlin

[Wildthings]

I have seen pistons and heads that have seen far more damage than that back in the day that got a lot of additional miles put on them. If the rings are free, then its a monetary decision whether to reuse or replace. The potential for a crack in the piston's head that might propagate away from the one divot would certainly be of concern.

[Abscate]

Get that gunk off the piston, form to clean metal, before you make that call.

If you aren’t tripping the car and will roll it around town , you can run that piston…probably….after clean up, until next tear down next winter. Save that labour for that tear down
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[mikedjames]

When I dropped a piece of brass down the intake, I picked it out of the head and piston on my T1. Then i peened over the divots. Where one went near the piston edge I filed the piston edge gently.

I put it back together and have been driving it like usual since.
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Ancient vehicles and vessels

1974 VW T2 : Devon Eurovette camper with 1641 DP T1 engine, Progressive carb, full flow oil cooler, EDIS crank timed ignition.
Engine 1: 40k miles (rocker shaft clip fell off), Engine 2: 30k miles (rebuild, dropped valve). Engine 3: a JK Preservation Parts "new" engine, aluminium case: 26k miles: new top end.
Gearbox rebuild 2021 by Bears.

1979 Westerly GK24 24 foot racer/cruiser yacht Forethought of Gosport.
1973 wooden Pacer sailing dinghy

[skills@eurocarsplus]

I had an issue years ago in this GEX hydraulic lifter piece of shit that is still in my single cab and seems like it refuses to die (despite my best efforts, and no oil changes in 14 years.. yes, 14 years)

It has mismatched heads, a piston dressed with a dremel re-used rings on a 'fresh' hone job back then.

It's the most gutless pile of shit I have ever driven, but it runs pretty good in spite of it all.

doesn't help that I have been hauling anywhere between 1800-2200 pounds of shit to the scrapper

So depending on what your expectations are, don't listen to the forum at large. I don't go far out of town, and have an engine ready to go for this...which I thought would have been needed in a year...14 years ago...
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[raygreenwood]

I posted yetserday and for some reason it did not post....anyway...kinda along the same lines as what skills said.

Before you buy or throw anything away, pull the cylinders off and inspect to see:

1. check the ring groove near that damage. If it measures fine then its fine....fine enough.

2. Measure the piston skirts. If they are still in range...fine.

Then I would:

1. Grab a dremel with a 360 grit rubber wheel and take the hard/sharp edges off of the dents in the piston. I have run worse than that for 50k miles with higher compression. I had valve dents in all four pistons from a cam disaster and they ran fine (all I could rfind at the moment).

2. Get new rings and run a ball hone through the cylinders just to get them a new tooth.

3. Lap the top sealing surface of the cylinders on a sheet of glass.

Why do all of this? Well....if they measure out right they can be fine for MANY miles...depending on what you want out of this engine, If you are willing to put it back to gether while you are collecting parts for a complete rebuild down the line....it can work fine. Ray