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OldSchoolVW's 
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 Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2024 4:33 pm Post subject: Horn Erratic Ground (with photos) - '63 Bug |
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I've read through the other discussions regarding horn issues, but haven't seen any with my specific problem.
My understanding is that the horn ring, when pressed, completes the ground connection from the horn to the chassis allowing the horn to sound.
This being the case, I believe there is supposed to be continuity between the ground connector at the horn and the end of the ground wire emerging from the top of the splined steering shaft. I do not have continuity between these points.
I do have continuity between the ground connector at the horn and the connector at the base of the tube surrounding the steering shaft under the gas tank (see photos).
So ... what is likely to be preventing continuity between the base of the tube surrounding the steering shaft and the end of the ground wire emerging from the splined steering shaft?
Additional details:
Voltage between the + and ground connectors at the horn is ~ 5.5v as soon as the key is in the "on" position. The ground wire at the horn ring is disconnected. So, the horn circuit is getting ground from somewhere in the tube surrounding the steering shaft. Also, the voltage jumps erratically from 1.0v to 5.5v with any movement of the steering wheel. Under these circumstances the horn would probably sound off and sputter erratically on its own. Given these symptoms, can anyone tell me what is likely to be going on and how to correct it? I'm not inclined to just throw parts at a problem, but recognize something may very well need to be replaced ... I'm just not sure what the most likely culprit is.
Voltage between these connectors (at the horn) is 5.5v as soon as the key is in the "on" position. It then jumps erratically from 1.0v to 5.5v with any movement of the steering wheel.
I have continuity between this connector at the base of the tube surrounding the steering shaft and the connector at the horn. This connector is damaged and corroded, so I will run a new wire from this terminal to the horn. For the purpose of checking voltage, I connected a temporary wire to this terminal.
I believe there should be continuity from the end of this wire to the terminal on the base of the tube and then on to the connector at the horn. There is no continuity at this time.
Have read through the "Horn Problems" write ups at the Bug Shop and WW links provided in other discussions, but didn't see any discussion of this type of issue.
Thanks for any info or insights you can provide!
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Tom
"Following distance is proportional to IQ."
"If you don't do it this year, you'll be one year older when you do." Warren Miller
"Research is what I'm doing when I don't know what I'm doing." Wernher von Braun
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EVfun
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| Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2024 9:26 pm Post subject: Re: Horn Erratic Ground (with photos) - '63 Bug |
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| OldSchoolVW's wrote: |
I've read through the other discussions regarding horn issues, but haven't seen any with my specific problem.
My understanding is that the horn ring, when pressed, completes the ground connection from the horn to the chassis allowing the horn to sound.
This being the case, I believe there is supposed to be continuity between the ground connector at the horn and the end of the ground wire emerging from the top of the splined steering shaft. I do not have continuity between these points. |
No, the wire emerging from the top of the steering shaft is always connected to ground. Under the gas tank the other end of that wire should be connected to one of the bolts connected to the steering box side of the rag joint. When the horn button is pressed the steering wheel is electrically connected to that wire to sound the horn.
| Quote: |
I do have continuity between the ground connector at the horn and the connector at the base of the tube surrounding the steering shaft under the gas tank (see photos).
So ... what is likely to be preventing continuity between the base of the tube surrounding the steering shaft and the end of the ground wire emerging from the splined steering shaft?
[snip] |
Continuity from the horn ground connection and the steering column tube is good. The full path is:
1 fused power goes to the horn
2 the other terminal of the horn is connected to the steering column tube
3 the steering column tube and steering column shaft are electrically isolated from ground by the rubber grommets at both ends of the tube and the rag joint at the bottom of the steering shaft
4 power flows from the steering column tube, through the upper steering column bearing, to the steering shaft and steering wheel
5 the brown wire emerging from the top of the steering column tube is connected to the horn button
6 when the horn button is pressed it connects the brown wire to the steering wheel
7 with the horn button pressed power then flows down the brown wire in the steering shaft and over to steering box side of the rag joint
8 power can then flow through the steering box bearings, into the beam, and from then back to the frame (battery ground)
The above circuit path is for 1962-1967 Bugs only. A loose steering box does not always provide a good ground path through the bearings unless the steering wheel is being turned to put some load on it. Wolfsburg West has their description of the circuit (scroll down to the correct year range) here.
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davisshannon
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| Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2024 9:49 pm Post subject: Re: Horn Erratic Ground (with photos) - '63 Bug |
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| I recently fixed the horn issues in my ‘66. The Wolfsburg link provided helped me out, along with these two videos. https://youtu.be/MUgHNfAY-34 and https://youtu.be/-fk4SAeknHQ?. I wonder if your rubber grommets between the tube and body inside the car aren’t isolating properly? |
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OldSchoolVW's
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| Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2024 10:14 pm Post subject: Re: Horn Erratic Ground (with photos) - '63 Bug |
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Thanks for this detailed description and clarification.
So the brown (ground) wire emerging from the splined shaft is not connected to the horn ground wire/tube until the horn button is pressed to create a contact between the two, correct?
Therefore, the ground wire at the horn should not be grounded until the horn button is pressed (the tube this wire is connected to is isolated from ground by rubber grommets).
If everything is connected as it should be, then I should see 0v across the + horn connector and the horn ground wire when the key is turned to the "on" position because the horn button has not yet been pressed to complete the connection to ground.
With the horn button wire disconnected (as seen in the third photo), I read 5.5v across the horn connectors instead of 0v and the voltage jumps erratically between 1.0v and 5.5v if the steering wheel is turned even slightly in either direction. So where might the contact to ground be coming from? 
_________________
Tom
"Following distance is proportional to IQ."
"If you don't do it this year, you'll be one year older when you do." Warren Miller
"Research is what I'm doing when I don't know what I'm doing." Wernher von Braun
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OldSchoolVW's
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| Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2024 10:16 pm Post subject: Re: Horn Erratic Ground (with photos) - '63 Bug |
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| davisshannon wrote: |
| I recently fixed the horn issues in my ‘66. The Wolfsburg link provided helped me out, along with these two videos. https://youtu.be/MUgHNfAY-34 and https://youtu.be/-fk4SAeknHQ?. I wonder if your rubber grommets between the tube and body inside the car aren’t isolating properly? |
Thanks for these links, I'll give them a look in the morning when my brain is more rested. 
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Tom
"Following distance is proportional to IQ."
"If you don't do it this year, you'll be one year older when you do." Warren Miller
"Research is what I'm doing when I don't know what I'm doing." Wernher von Braun
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EVfun
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| Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2024 10:48 pm Post subject: Re: Horn Erratic Ground (with photos) - '63 Bug |
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| OldSchoolVW's wrote: |
Thanks for this detailed description and clarification.
So the brown (ground) wire emerging from the splined shaft is not connected to the horn ground wire/tube until the horn button is pressed to create a contact between the two, correct?
Therefore, the ground wire at the horn should not be grounded until the horn button is pressed (the tube this wire is connected to is isolated from ground by rubber grommets).
If everything is connected as it should be, then I should see 0v across the + horn connector and the horn ground wire when the key is turned to the "on" position because the horn button has not yet been pressed to complete the connection to ground.
With the horn button wire disconnected (as seen in the third photo), I read 5.5v across the horn connectors instead of 0v and the voltage jumps erratically between 1.0v and 5.5v if the steering wheel is turned even slightly in either direction. So where might the contact to ground be coming from? |
Correct
Correct
Correct
Is you Bug still 6 volt, or has it been converted to 12 volts? Seeing 5.5 volts on a 6 volt system suggests a decent path. Seeing 5.5 volts on a 12 volt system could be a high resistance connection that may not indicate a problem.
A quick horn check is to remove the wire from the horn that goes to the steering column tube. Make yourself a jumper wire to connect that horn terminal directly to ground. Wear hearing protection first! The horn should sound. This check will verify the problem is in the ground connection path, and not the power supply path to the horn.
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thomas.
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| Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2024 2:58 am Post subject: Re: Horn Erratic Ground (with photos) - '63 Bug |
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| OldSchoolVW's wrote: |
With the horn button wire disconnected (as seen in the third photo), I read 5.5v across the horn connectors instead of 0v and the voltage jumps erratically between 1.0v and 5.5v if the steering wheel is turned even slightly in either direction. So where might the contact to ground be coming from? |
If you are using cotterpins to secure your steering coupler they might be hitting on something(like the gas tank or body parts) and grounding as you spin the steering wheel. |
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OldSchoolVW's
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| Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2024 7:12 am Post subject: Re: Horn Erratic Ground (with photos) - '63 Bug |
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| EVfun wrote: |
Is you Bug still 6 volt, or has it been converted to 12 volts? Seeing 5.5 volts on a 6 volt system suggests a decent path. Seeing 5.5 volts on a 12 volt system could be a high resistance connection that may not indicate a problem.
A quick horn check is to remove the wire from the horn that goes to the steering column tube. Make yourself a jumper wire to connect that horn terminal directly to ground. Wear hearing protection first! The horn should sound. This check will verify the problem is in the ground connection path, and not the power supply path to the horn. |
I tested the old horn by removing it and running jumper wires from the terminals directly to the battery posts and it proved to be a goner. I received the new horn from WW yesterday, tested it in the same manner and it worked fine. I can use the new horn to run the test you describe, but I imagine I can verify the power supply to the horn with a VOM (rather than the the new horn) and just use a good ground location on the chassis.
Sorry I forgot to mention at the beginning ... yes, still 6v. I thought the initial 5.5v when the key was turned on suggested a pretty good ground connection. The fact that it shows any voltage at all at this point is problematic ... and the erratic voltage reading with any movement of the steering wheel is puzzling.
_________________
Tom
"Following distance is proportional to IQ."
"If you don't do it this year, you'll be one year older when you do." Warren Miller
"Research is what I'm doing when I don't know what I'm doing." Wernher von Braun
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OldSchoolVW's
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| Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2024 7:29 am Post subject: Re: Horn Erratic Ground (with photos) - '63 Bug |
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| thomas. wrote: |
| OldSchoolVW's wrote: |
With the horn button wire disconnected (as seen in the third photo), I read 5.5v across the horn connectors instead of 0v and the voltage jumps erratically between 1.0v and 5.5v if the steering wheel is turned even slightly in either direction. So where might the contact to ground be coming from? |
If you are using cotterpins to secure your steering coupler they might be hitting on something(like the gas tank or body parts) and grounding as you spin the steering wheel. |
Thanks for this suggestion. I'll give it a look, but I believe this would only affect the ground connection to the wire emerging from the splined steering shaft (third photo), not the tube the horn ground wire is attached to (second photo).
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Tom
"Following distance is proportional to IQ."
"If you don't do it this year, you'll be one year older when you do." Warren Miller
"Research is what I'm doing when I don't know what I'm doing." Wernher von Braun
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OldSchoolVW's
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| Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2024 9:24 am Post subject: Re: Horn Erratic Ground (with photos) - '63 Bug |
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I did double check the steering tube to be sure it was not making contact with the underside of the dash. The rubber grommets at the top and bottom of the tube and the rubber bumper in the middle of the tube (red arrow) appear to isolate the tube from the body. I loosened the two bolts supporting the top to lower it further and make sure there is daylight between the tube and the body. The tube is still grounded and the voltage at the horn connectors jumps erratically when the steering wheel moves. I tried to get a photo of the inside of the tube from the lower end, but can't get my phone in the right position to do so. I've tried to find a diagram that shows what is inside the the top of the steering column so I can anticipate what parts might need to be replaced, but have had no luck. WW usually has great diagrams on their website, but I didn't see any for this and they don't even mention a steering column bearing. I hesitate to start taking this area apart without knowing I can get replacement parts. When I took the turn signal switch out of my '69 it pretty much fell apart in my hands. 
_________________
Tom
"Following distance is proportional to IQ."
"If you don't do it this year, you'll be one year older when you do." Warren Miller
"Research is what I'm doing when I don't know what I'm doing." Wernher von Braun
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EVfun
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| Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2024 11:29 am Post subject: Re: Horn Erratic Ground (with photos) - '63 Bug |
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| OldSchoolVW's wrote: |
| EVfun wrote: |
Is you Bug still 6 volt, or has it been converted to 12 volts? Seeing 5.5 volts on a 6 volt system suggests a decent path. Seeing 5.5 volts on a 12 volt system could be a high resistance connection that may not indicate a problem.
A quick horn check is to remove the wire from the horn that goes to the steering column tube. Make yourself a jumper wire to connect that horn terminal directly to ground. Wear hearing protection first! The horn should sound. This check will verify the problem is in the ground connection path, and not the power supply path to the horn. |
I tested the old horn by removing it and running jumper wires from the terminals directly to the battery posts and it proved to be a goner. I received the new horn from WW yesterday, tested it in the same manner and it worked fine. I can use the new horn to run the test you describe, but I imagine I can verify the power supply to the horn with a VOM (rather than the the new horn) and just use a good ground location on the chassis.
Sorry I forgot to mention at the beginning ... yes, still 6v. I thought the initial 5.5v when the key was turned on suggested a pretty good ground connection. The fact that it shows any voltage at all at this point is problematic ... and the erratic voltage reading with any movement of the steering wheel is puzzling. |
The problem with testing for power with a VOM is that they have a very high internal resistance, 30,000 ohms is possible. So if the power path to your horn has a questionable connection or 2 and you may have 20 ohms of resistance in the power supply path. With essentially no load the meter shows full voltage. If you try to draw 1 amp through that wire you will find that isn't possible, it drops to zero volts. That is because 5.5 volts, through a 20 ohm resistor, and then directly to ground only results in 0.275 amps flowing. That is not enough for the horn to reliably work.
One possible way the steering column is grounded, with the brown ground wire running down the center disconnected, is that the brown wire has worn through the insulation somewhere inside the tube and so is supplying an intermittent ground, wiggling a little as the steering is turned. The most likely spot is right where it exits the inside of the steering shaft so you may be able to spot it and test by getting the bad spot out off the metal bits. You may need to pull a new ground wire through the column, it is best to do this by using the old wire to pull a string through the tube as you remove it, then using the string to pull the new wire into place.
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Wayne S. Johnson
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Eric&Barb
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| Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2024 1:26 pm Post subject: Re: Horn Erratic Ground (with photos) - '63 Bug |
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You need to solder that ground terminal to the column. The riveted connection there allows in water/oxygen in between the parts causing corrosion which in turn causes voltage drop.
5.5 volts is just OK for a 6 volt system, but what is the voltage at the battery posts? If say 7.2 volts, that means you have nearly 2 volts of drop. You want to get that below 0.1 volt =1/10 of a volt.
Have you soldered up the fuse box internal connections?
Have you taken the headlight switch apart to solder up the internal connections??
ALL CONNECTIONS need to be cleaned, dielectric greased and tightened down. That is from the negative terminal through each grounds, to the electrical items and back thru the wiring to the positive battery post. Some grounds will just work better if you run a non-stock grounding wire, EG the taillights and front turn signals bulb holders directly to the body.
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OldSchoolVW's
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| Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2024 6:33 pm Post subject: Re: Horn Erratic Ground (with photos) - '63 Bug |
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| EVfun wrote: |
The problem with testing for power with a VOM is that they have a very high internal resistance, 30,000 ohms is possible. So if the power path to your horn has a questionable connection or 2 and you may have 20 ohms of resistance in the power supply path. With essentially no load the meter shows full voltage. If you try to draw 1 amp through that wire you will find that isn't possible, it drops to zero volts. That is because 5.5 volts, through a 20 ohm resistor, and then directly to ground only results in 0.275 amps flowing. That is not enough for the horn to reliably work.
One possible way the steering column is grounded, with the brown ground wire running down the center disconnected, is that the brown wire has worn through the insulation somewhere inside the tube and so is supplying an intermittent ground, wiggling a little as the steering is turned. The most likely spot is right where it exits the inside of the steering shaft so you may be able to spot it and test by getting the bad spot out off the metal bits. You may need to pull a new ground wire through the column, it is best to do this by using the old wire to pull a string through the tube as you remove it, then using the string to pull the new wire into place. |
Thanks for pointing this out. I will test for power with the new horn and see what happens.
I agree that the erratic ground may be caused by the insulation on the brown wire in the steering shaft being worn through and making intermittent contact with the shaft. I have several feet of heat shrink tubing, so I think I'll slide it over the brown wire and down the shaft. If there is an exposed area making contact, the shrink wrap should shield it.
| Wayne S. Johnson wrote: |
| I added a ground wire form the ring to chassis. Run it alongside the other wire. |
Since you didn't connect to the old wire and use it to pull the new wire through, I'm guessing you fed the new wire in at the bottom of the shaft and pushed it up to the top of the splined shaft?
| Eric&Barb wrote: |
You need to solder that ground terminal to the column. The riveted connection there allows in water/oxygen in between the parts causing corrosion which in turn causes voltage drop.
5.5 volts is just OK for a 6 volt system, but what is the voltage at the battery posts? If say 7.2 volts, that means you have nearly 2 volts of drop. You want to get that below 0.1 volt =1/10 of a volt.
Have you soldered up the fuse box internal connections?
Have you taken the headlight switch apart to solder up the internal connections??
ALL CONNECTIONS need to be cleaned, dielectric greased and tightened down. That is from the negative terminal through each grounds, to the electrical items and back thru the wiring to the positive battery post. Some grounds will just work better if you run a non-stock grounding wire, EG the taillights and front turn signals bulb holders directly to the body. |
I agree that cleaning and soldering the ground terminal at the base of the steering column tube would be a good idea, however, access to that area is very limited. It was hard enough to get to it with needle nose pliers to remove the connector so I could clean the terminal with steel wool. I can spray it with DeoxIT, but soldering would be a tall order.
Voltage across the battery (engine off) is 6.2v so, with 5.5v at the horn, there is certainly room for improvement.
I replaced the original fuse panel with an ATO blade fuse panel from Torque Resto.
Headlight switch inspection and cleaning is on my to-do list. I have switched to LEDs just about everywhere, not to compensate for any voltage drops, but to get more lumen bang for the buck and reduce the overall load on the electrical system.
I'm all for connector and terminal hygiene and am working my way through the system cleaning, scraping and dielectric greasing as I go. I spent a week last Saturday working on this ... 
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Tom
"Following distance is proportional to IQ."
"If you don't do it this year, you'll be one year older when you do." Warren Miller
"Research is what I'm doing when I don't know what I'm doing." Wernher von Braun
'63 Beetle Sedan
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Eric&Barb
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| Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2024 7:00 pm Post subject: Re: Horn Erratic Ground (with photos) - '63 Bug |
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| OldSchoolVW's wrote: |
I agree that cleaning and soldering the ground terminal at the base of the steering column tube would be a good idea, however, access to that area is very limited. It was hard enough to get to it with needle nose pliers to remove the connector so I could clean the terminal with steel wool. I can spray it with DeoxIT, but soldering would be a tall order. |
Personally have done that by removing left front tire, reaching up with one hand to sand clean the two pieces of metal, and then reach up with a Weller pistol style soldering iron.
If not that way when the fuel tank is near empty next time, pull the tank out of the way.
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EVfun
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| Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2024 10:11 pm Post subject: Re: Horn Erratic Ground (with photos) - '63 Bug |
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| Eric&Barb wrote: |
| You need to solder that ground terminal to the column. The riveted connection there allows in water/oxygen in between the parts causing corrosion which in turn causes voltage drop. |
At this point OldSchool seems to have MORE ground than he needs. He is reading 5.5 volts across the horn without the horn button being pushed. Fixing connections might be needed, but it won't fix his current problem.
What I have done to that particular connection is to find a tiny screw that would just fit through the hole in the rivet and the matching size square nut. After wiggling the connection around with a little contact cleaner to help remove crud I put the tiny screw through the hole with the nut inside and tightened it up to smash that rivet down tight. The screw has to be pretty short because you don't want it hitting, or too close to, the steering shaft. However, right now this isn't the problem at hand.
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OldSchoolVW's
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| Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2024 5:08 pm Post subject: Re: Horn Erratic Ground (with photos) - '63 Bug |
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Update:
I installed the new horn and connected the + wire from the fuse panel to one of the terminals on the horn. I attached a jumper wire to the other terminal and then clipped the other end of the jumper to the brown wire coming out of the top of the steering shaft. As soon as the key is turned to the "on" position the horn sounds (quite robustly, I might add). So I think it's safe to conclude that:
A. The horn is getting adequate current from the fuse panel
B. The ground wire in the steering shaft is providing a solid ground path.
With the key in the "on" position, if I connect the other end of the ground jumper wire coming from the horn terminal to the terminal at the base of the steering tube and then touch the brown ground wire to the splined shaft nothing happens. Touching this wire to the splined shaft should ground the shaft and in turn the tube providing a ground path all the way to the horn, correct?
One more observation ...
If I clip the ground jumper from the horn to the splined shaft, then touch the brown wire to the shaft there is a spark and the horn barely makes a sound. Shouldn't the shaft be grounded at this point so the horn sounds?
I could use some help interpreting what is going on.
Thank you!
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Tom
"Following distance is proportional to IQ."
"If you don't do it this year, you'll be one year older when you do." Warren Miller
"Research is what I'm doing when I don't know what I'm doing." Wernher von Braun
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glutamodo
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Eric&Barb
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| Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2024 7:30 pm Post subject: Re: Horn Erratic Ground (with photos) - '63 Bug |
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| OldSchoolVW's wrote: |
A. The horn is getting adequate current from the fuse panel |
It might be while sitting with nothing else drawing electrical power. Our 1961 beetle would not have a working horn if both the headlights and wipers were running at same time, until cleaning all the connections. Also found out that the wiring at the left headlight had been mixed up at one point so that both high and low filaments were running at same time which made for terrible night time driving.
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OldSchoolVW's
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| Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2024 8:55 pm Post subject: Re: Horn Erratic Ground (with photos) - '63 Bug |
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Thanks Andy! I just happen to have some extra 6v relays so will give this a try. I looked over the diagram you posted in the other discussion. Just one question ... what does relay 86 get connected to ... the tab riveted to the bottom of the steering column tube? If so, do you think using this type of ground clip would also work?
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Commercial-Electric-14.../310741858
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Tom
"Following distance is proportional to IQ."
"If you don't do it this year, you'll be one year older when you do." Warren Miller
"Research is what I'm doing when I don't know what I'm doing." Wernher von Braun
'63 Beetle Sedan
'69 Beetle Sunroof
'70 Beetle Sedan
'73 Type 3 Fastback |
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