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2WD Limited Slip Experience
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davevickery
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 10:57 am    Post subject: 2WD Limited Slip Experience Reply with quote

The Peloquin LSD have been out for several years now and are becoming more popular in 2wd vanagons. I searched and did not see a topic specifically about people's experience with one in a 2wd Vanagon so I am creating this thread.

I will post in depth test results as I get to play with it more. Your comments are appreciated especially if you have any experiences with limited slip in a 2wd van.

First impressions, the differential feels a little stiffer than normal. I read there is a break in period where it loosens up some. The stiffness feels kind of like hydraullic resistance when you turn the output shaft by hand. I don't feel anything different when driving though. I might be imagining a slight hit to horsepower. You get hyper sensitive when you are checking out something new. It could take a little bit extra to turn that gear or it could be just my imagination.

This video was helpful to me in deciding to get one. It shows both wheels putting up rooster tails in the snow. Somehow a picture is more compelling than people just saying the snow traction is much better. This was also the only vanagon video I could find.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-5EHSaRWVc

I will post more comments as I try other things. I started out with 2wd campers, 1 stick and 1 automatic and my last van was a syncro with a locker. I got towed out about 6 times the last year I had the automatic and I got winched out once in 3 years with the syncro in addition to getting stuck for an hour or so a couple times. I like to take things to a reasonable limit and usually try to get down a slippery hill to the river, or up one more step on a jeep trail to the top or down a snowed over trail. I hardly ever camp in organized sites. So I think I have a good cross section of experience to test this. I don't expect this to turn my van into a syncro, but I am hoping for better snow traction on the highway and better traction on Colorado jeep roads that lead to remote camping locations.

First impressions. Traction seems very good to both rear wheels. Over uneven jeep roads with a moderate grade neither wheel broke away and getting up to bigger obstacles was uneventful. Trying to climb over rocks was more difficult (compared to a syncro) mainly because 1st gear is not low enough of a gear to crawl. I didn't want to burn out the clutch right away, so I gave up on that obstactle which the sycnro would have crawled right over. The 8000' altitude and the steepish incline and lack of a lower gear made me give up on that road. But I could have made it if I was willing to hit it with some speed, or really work the clutch.

In really slippery mud, both wheels were spinning and my BFG ATs were completely filled with mud. In that situation, the rear end wants to move a little bit side to side as it moves forward, like when you are on ice in a syncro with the rear locker on. I noticed that a little bit going through some slippery snow patches also. I guess that is to be expected when both wheels are spinning but with a 1wd van, the van doesn't move side to side at all because one wheel is stationary and holding your line. In 1wd I probably would have gotten stuck though. In that cow road mud I approached a hill with not too much of a slope and I could not make it up. The tires were sinking into the mud about 4-5 inches and as soon as I started sliding sideways, I stopped and backed down. That was pretty slippery stuff but I think a non-locked syncro with the same tires would have probably gotten up the hill.

I want to try more in the snow but I may have to wait till next winter unless I get up to ski country pretty soon. The main justification for the LSD is better snow traction on the road, which is where it should do the best, but I will provide an unbiased review. If I find the Limited Slip does not live up to my expectations, I won't be afraid to say I made a $1200 mistake. But so far based on just a couple test runs, it is superior to stock 1wd.
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1621
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the review. I'll be watching this thread for updates. The Peloquin is something I'm very eager to add when that rich uncle dies and leaves me his estate. Wink
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teej
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I too will be watching this thread, we do alot of snow camping in our 2wd, and would do more. Thanks for the initial review
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Bman
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 11:47 am    Post subject: LSD! Yeah I'll have some! Reply with quote

Embarassed OK, for some of us slow on the uptake:
What exactly is a limted slip differential; from what I gather between the lines it delivers power to both rear wheels ALL the time?
Our 2WD campers and such are actually 1WD? then why do we have 2 CV shafts to the rear wheels?
Also who makes these LSD trannies, and where can we find their info?

Thanks for your review and sharing more great information! Laughing
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for taking the iniative David. I've been thinking of getting an LSD -- read up what GoWesty has to say. They talk about different types of LSDs.

Do you have the GoWesty or is yours different? Also, can you give us the links for some of your info sources?
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dobryan
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Daryl at AAtrans put a LSD in my 2WD trans for my '87 Westy. I have a 10% driveway and under 1WD I often could not get up it in a snow, but I have yet to be stopped with the LSD. Can't give real traction numbers but I think it has helped a lot.

If you want to talk LSD (for your trans Rolling Eyes ) give Daryl a call. Very Happy

Edit: Based on what others have said I have a TBD with a locker from Daryl, not an LSD with locker.
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teej
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.peloquins.com/products_091.html

Until someone can say for sure, I think this is the one offered by Daryl at AA as well as gowesty.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 12:34 pm    Post subject: Re: LSD! Yeah I'll have some! Reply with quote

B Love wrote:
Embarassed OK, for some of us slow on the uptake:
What exactly is a limted slip differential; from what I gather between the lines it delivers power to both rear wheels ALL the time?
Our 2WD campers and such are actually 1WD? then why do we have 2 CV shafts to the rear wheels?
Also who makes these LSD trannies, and where can we find their info?

Thanks for your review and sharing more great information! Laughing


All rear wheel drive vehicles have a differential. It's the device that allows one wheel to travel slightly faster than the other. ie, when going around a corner, the outside wheel travel fractionally faster than the inside. Without the diff, the inside wheel would be pulled through the turn. This causes poor handling, excessive tire wear, and can cause lose of control.
The downside is that by design, power is delivered to the wheel with the least amount of traction. Not an issue 99% of the time. But, when one wheel starts to slip, all the power gets put into that wheel and the vehicle stops. A limited slip diff "limits" the difference in speed between the 2 wheels. Many modern cars do this but they call it traction control. They basically use the antilock braking computer to feather the brake of the slipping wheel which will divert the power to the slower wheel.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't have a good idea to compare between open diff and limited slip diff on vanagon because i had never gone on dirt when I had open diff on my vanagon. Here is a short video my 11 yr-old son edited for me. The short hill at the end of video was more challenging than it appears in the video but 2 wheel grip was very good at that time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4AkiH-uTpg
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Bman
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A limited slip diff "limits" the difference in speed between the 2 wheels.

Thanks Buildyourown!
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87vanagon
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the write up and the videos guys, this is the next big expense I want to add to the Van and these videos have shown me that it will be well worth it.
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Brickwerks
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I only have the factory LSD, Its Gert sensitive to gear oil and finding the right Oil to put in it is a bit of a nightmare in itself.
I'm a bad person to comment really as I also have a factory rear anti roll bar set up fitted to my 2WD westy.
I can throw the van about a fair bit, surprising for 2 tonnes of camper van.
LSD wise, you can feels it on low speed corners as an almost vibration, you can feels the tyres on the road grabbing, but again I'm running 8.5" rear Wheels so I'm sure that doesn't help!
I have recently fitted the rear camber correction shims which made a massive difference in handling and steering feel, so all these things detract from LSD comparisons.
I think I would have been better keeping my gob shut!
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r39o
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

teej wrote:
http://www.peloquins.com/products_091.html

Until someone can say for sure, I think this is the one offered by Daryl at AA as well as gowesty.

I wait for the LLSD version. Locking Limited Slip Differential. In the mean time I am leaving it alone....for now.

PLUS there ARE threads relating.....

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=452508&highlight=lsd
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=389820&highlight=lsd
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I added at least 70 horses to the vanagon with the subaru. With the 1 wheel drive , in the rain and 225/55/17 , the inner wheel would spin from a stop turning. I did not get a chance to drive in the snow with the suby and 1 wheel drive But the Peloquin LSD made it all better. I would spend the 1200.00 all over !!! I think it makes the vanagon drive better with the Peloquin in the rainy northwest. Its not going to fallow the Toyota into the woods but good enough to get out of the ski parking lot.


DO IT DO IT !! Very Happy
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been thinking about an LSD for my 2wd manual Vanagon. What did it cost you? Did you exchange your tranny for a rebuilt one with LSD or did Daryl rebuild the one you had? Did you change any gearing?
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

targis58 wrote:
I don't have a good idea to compare between open diff and limited slip diff on vanagon because i had never gone on dirt when I had open diff on my vanagon. Here is a short video my 11 yr-old son edited for me. The short hill at the end of video was more challenging than it appears in the video but 2 wheel grip was very good at that time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4AkiH-uTpg


I know that hill, targis58..the one coming up from the 'shelf/cliffside' camping spot. It is steep. That was a fun day...hope to see you and your family again!
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targis58
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Texxxxx wrote:
targis58 wrote:
I don't have a good idea to compare between open diff and limited slip diff on vanagon because i had never gone on dirt when I had open diff on my vanagon. Here is a short video my 11 yr-old son edited for me. The short hill at the end of video was more challenging than it appears in the video but 2 wheel grip was very good at that time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4AkiH-uTpg


I know that hill, targis58..the one coming up from the 'shelf/cliffside' camping spot. It is steep. That was a fun day...hope to see you and your family again!


Yup. see you soon! I wanna get stuck. Very Happy I have a come-a-long still unopen. Wanna use it Laughing
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Targis,

Nice movie - enjoyed the music. Where did you get the music - it sounded like the high energy music that's at the beginning of an adrenaline movie where you're waiting for everyone to get in the room to push "Play". Heh.

Doug
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well the samba is full of opinions so here is mine on this subject. I think I am the minority. I guess I think there is a better option, which I will get too.

So answer this question. Driving tight canyon roads at 30 mph. You find some black ice on a shaded corner. LSD or not? I think it would be more dangerous and your back end is more likely to spin out.

Off camber and one wheel off the ground? LSD does basically nothing.

Driving in a snow field, call it 6 inches of snow. Both rear wheels are turning and you have good forward momentum, which is good. The bad is that since both tires are pushing you forward at the same speed, you have a tendency to loose steering and your front tires would plow instead of steer the van. The other side of the coin here is that with 1wd you would have no momentum, which sucks worst, I guess.

My biggest issue is the LSD are unpredictable and chance are they probably won't be that effective when you 'really' need them in a offroad situation.

I have had this conversation with many people that disagree with me. I like the idea a little more in a syncro because the front wheels are pulling you through corners although I see more disadvantage than advantge.

Yes, my opinion comes from experience. I have installed a couple and put quite a few miles on one including snow travel.

So what's the solution? We manufacture a plate to install a Syncro tranny in a 2wd van. You remove the nose cone, like you were installing a decoupler on a syncro. Then you mount our custom mount to the tranny, which enables you to use the stock 2wd mount. Now your 2wd van has a selectable diff locker and a granny gear. The draw backs here are obvious, you have to find a syncro tranny. But come on it's only money right...

I think this is the ultimate set up and for me would be better than a syncro.

Again, just my .02c worth. Yes, I stock the mount. No, I don't have any syncro trannies.....for sale. I am a horder when it comes to syncro trannys
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll bet most of us interested in pursuing LSD aren't doing so for the potential offroad prowess, rather we see that the open diff keeps us from some of the more basic aspects of motoring in inclement or...FFS, driving on our very own wet lawns and muddy driveways!
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