Still dropping pushrods/bent one - need help from pros

[IdahoDoug]

OK. This WBX is giving me fits. Just had the heads rebuilt by a great shop because when I first got it running 6 months ago, I parked it overnight and the next morning on cold startup it bent all 4 INTAKE pushrods. The van had sat for 7 years, so I figured the valve guides were grundged up and siezing, and it was time to pull the heads anyhow to put new HG seals in. My bad. Back to the present. Got the heads back a couple months ago. Put them on this week and started it Saturday. Drove it around for about 30 minutes and the engine ran fine. Yeeha!! The next morning on cold startup (yesterday), I heard the bang of a pushrod bending and let go of the key before it started.

This is EXACTLY what happened 6 months ago - right down to driving it for 30 minutes, then bending the lifters on cold startup the next morning. Exactly.

So I just took a look a few minutes ago, and here's what I found: 3 of 4 cylinders have the INTAKE pushrod fallen out of the lifter, with one of the 3 bent. Intakes only - again.

Here is what I did Saturday before starting it up just to give you a flavor for how careful I was. I spent a great deal of time getting to know this pushrod/lifter/adjuster setup as didn't want any pushrod issues this time. Two lifters had a chip taken out of their edges and I replaced these two with new ones from Van Cafe. Here is what I did after the heads were on Saturday to avoid ANY valve train problems.

Cleaned and bench bled lifters. Practiced on a damaged one from the earlier fiasco first until I was confident in the procedure. Installed them.
Installed the pushrods.
Adjusted the pushrods per Bentley (2 turns from zero lash).
Manually turned over the engine by hand several times.
Adjusted the pushrods again.
Pulled the sparkplugs and disconnected the injectors, used starter to turn engine until the oil pressure light turned off. Everything fine.
Adjusted the pushrods again
Started the engine and ran it for about 30 seconds (ran rough)
Used my shop vac to suck oil out of the pushrod tubes to verify they were all still in place. Yes - 100% sure.
Adjusted the pushrods again
Started the engine several times, each time for a minute or so
Used the shop vac and again verified the pushrods were on
Adjusted the pushrods again but this time used 1.5 turns per several people's recommendations here and figuring the lifters were now fully pumped up.
Then, and only then, I started the engine and it continued to run rough for about 5 minutes before smoothing out and I drove it around for 30 minutes. Very pleased. Parked it for the night as mentioned.

I did all of this because my lifters simply never felt "solid" and gave me any confidence the adjustment was correct. I learned to feel for the faint springiness of the soft lifters and let the lifter spring weakly up and use that as "zero lash". As the engine was turned over and started repeatedly, I knew the lifters would be getting pumped up more and more and allowing me to be more precise. I am really frustrated because I KNEW this could happen again and if/when it did I wanted to be able to sleep with myself knowing that I'd gone way above and beyond. Ironically, that's exactly where I find myself now - with a WBX that has bent yet another pushrod and dropped lifters despite my extreme attention to this detail. I am very confident that I get the adjustment process thoroughly, too. Two intake lifters were replaced and one of them is the valve that just bent a pushrod, the other has a fallen pushrod and the third fallen pushrod is on an original lifter.

I called the shop an hour ago. The owner was personally involved in the heads when they were in and I have had great dealings with them on other heads. He assured me the valve guides were pulled, measured, cleaned and one or more were replaced during reassembly. He did not have a position on what happened but did mention that if I had old gas in the van it could have been a problem. I told him the old fuel was drained before the 1st time I started it 6 mos ago and the fuel lines, fuel filter, injectors and fuel pump were all new.

So. I need some able advice here. I simply cannot imagine anyone going any further to ensure the valve train was in good nick and ready to go. I am well and truly stumped and really not wanting to reassemble and try this again until I feel I have a handle on what's happening.

Thanks in advance,

DougM
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1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1988 Toyota Supra 5 speed targa, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader

[xoo00oox]

Did you put any kind of additive in the gas?

[Jake de Villiers]

Hey Doug, I'm thinking that you over-tightened the lifters and you got into a hydraulic lock situation.

I've only dealt with WBX lifters a couple of times but both times I had to set them to zero to start with, and then take them in 1/2 a turn at a time until they were in one turn.

What are you using for oil?
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[Wildthings]

Are you 100% certain that you did the lifter adjustment at TDC compression for each cylinder? If you have the crank 360° out then your lifter adjustment will be very loose which might be your problem. Would think it would make a racket though when it ran.

[ajdenette]

I’m defiantly watching this thread Idaho Doug as this is exactly what I have going on with my engine though I completely drained and put new fuel in before starting the van. I had new swirl polished SI valves and new guides put into a set of AMC heads and had some used OE springs from some OE 1.9 heads at a shop I thought knew VW heads I questioned them but now wonder if the issue lies else ware. I adjusted the valves when building the engine but also had some very soft lifters so I did a rough adjustment until the lifters got some oil. I pre oiled the engine a bit to then it fired right up and ran great filled the cooling system and closed everything up made a few adjustments let the engine get up to temp and cool down to check there were no leaks and cleaned it out to pull it out of the garage. Made a quick run up and down the block with the van running great came back and parked the van. took the van for a spin around my parents field and it ran great, went driving down the access road when I pointed the nose down hill it stalled and was very hard to restart as well as keep running was able to feather the gas and get the van to the car port, next weekend I found the bent pushrod so I swapped it out and re adjusted the valves thinking I had one that either hadn’t seated well (though was reasonably sure it was installed correctly) the van started up fine and ran great went to make another hall down the street got to the end and stalled rolled off the street just in time for the local police (who NEVER come around my neighborhood) to go by after the dirt bikers who were running to the sandpits then drag the van back to the house to find the pushrod had dropped out of the rocker again

Now I’m working on Boston Bob rebuild to try and see if I can get it running for now.

The rest of the engine with head problems one head was stamped GEX, the block is a Canadian remanufactured bottom end, and has a set of re ringed OE pistons swapped out for the low comp after market pistons the engine had, so part of me feels the engine is fubar but part of me hopes it could be a running spare.
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[IdahoDoug]

OK, I got it under control (he says confidently). I'd like to claim I figured it out alone but I did not. More on that in a minute.

On the TDC thing, I am 100% certain I did the valve adjustments correctly but thank you for the suggestion. Interestingly, one of the 5 times I actually did it wrong as in my sleep dep I rotated the engine until the capless distributor rotor POINTED at cylinder #1 and started my adjustments. No clue how I missed that the pulley mark for TDC was not at the engine seam, but from then on through the other cylinders in the firing order, I aligned this correctly, 'cept I'd started at cylinder #2 (which is where the rotor is pointed when it visually looks like it's pointed at #1). Anyhow...

As for the hydro lock - nope. Again sure of the adjustments but again - thanks for the input. It's remarkable how the rapid fire suggestions like these often end up causing the OP (that's me in this thread) so suddenly realize the answer, so keep them coming.

So I called the machine shop again and had just a rambling chat with the owner about my situation. He immediately engaged in the trouble shooting with me in real time and after about 15 minutes concluded "bad gas". Suddenly a light went on. He was right. Yes, I'd drained the tank, replaced the lines, added a filter and put in a new fuel pump. But Saturday the fuel pump would not power up and I spent valuable time troubleshooting the electrics with some excellent help here before I applied direct 12 with jumper cables and banged it. Was stuck and then ran great. Clue #1.

Then when I got the engine going, it chugged and seemed to be having troubles and I was able to disconnect 2 of the injectors and found there was no difference in the rough running. Wrongly concluded I had an injector wiring issue. Before I was able to find a cause for this, subsequent startups were getting better and it finally evened out and ran beautifully. Should have been Clue #2 as the injectors were grunged up and 2 were not even feeding their cylinders until the pressure and fuel passing through cleared them. I thought it was the lifters pumping up slowly and properly operating the valves and left the injector issue as just a random malfunction that cleared up.

So, I asked him what the valve stems would look like and he said I'd see gummy dark brown tar like deposits when I pulled a valve out (which obviously I cannot do but this is his shop experience with incoming heads). So I told him that I suspected he was right, that I bet the fuel tank had a film of varnish and deposits that the fresh fuel was dissolving and depositing. He agreed. Clue #3 happened when I went back out and used a small bright light and my reading glasses (heh) to inspect the stuck valves. There it was. Only on the intake valves (exactly as he said it would be) was this brown crud and even an area of black hard (cracks when pressed into the skin with a nail) stuff I was able to snag with a long leather needle. Bingo! I'm feeding my nicely refurbished WBX fuel with crud dissolved into it.

So. I pulled the injectors and sprayed PB Blaster directly onto the intake valve stems so it would seep into that end of the valve guides. I sprayed it through the valve springs onto the valve stem's other end coming out of the valve guides. Then I took a hard plastic hammer and tapped the two stuck valves until they both moved into the cylinder slightly. Then used a screw driver to pry to pull them back out and continued tapping on the valve stem. Don't tap so far you cannot hook the spring keeper and pry against the edge of the head. Obviously use good judgement prying on an aluminum casting, too. I got no joy on one of them, so went to work on the other. No joy. Back to the first and was rewarded with it yielding to the gently prying while tapping. You're not really prying hard, just helping the valve springs and the tapping on the valve stem helps feed the PB Blaster in and helps keep the stem moving incrementally in the guide.

Worked it back and forth and now it's free. The other one is stuck worse and it's the only one that bent a lifter. So worked on it just mindlessly tapping (more like pecking) such that an observer would wonder why I was starting out the door at the mountains and brainlessly pecking away with small hits. Happily, dinner hour arrived at the same time as forearm fatigue so I gave it a quick little shot through the injector hole, and one from the valve cover side and went in to eat. After dinner came out and it was loose. This tapping and spraying is exactly what I did originally to free the valves from when I first got the Van and it worked faster this time. I believe the more setup grundge from sitting 7 years was harder to dissolve and that tapping was done a couple times a day for several days to achieve.

After the valves are free and before starting, I'll hand crank the engine with the valve covers off to see if the valves are correctly going through their entire stroke. Then I'll use the starter to crank the engine again wanting to see everything properly operating and I'll spray PB Blaster on both ends of the guides again beforehand.

So. I've gotta drain the tank again. Pump some Sea Foam type cleaner through the pump and injectors. Pour some still undecided solvent into the fuel tank (head shop owner suggested lacquer thinner) and shake the van around to help dissolve that stuff and drain it. Probably repeat to see what comes out on the second go around. Then refill with fresh gasoline and take it for a long drive with Sea Foam type cleaner in the gas with the idea being to run it with the cleaning effect going on and NOT shut it down and let it cool and harden any remaining grundge. I am not an additive guy, so this last paragraph I'm looking for advice on.

I've got a spring loaded pushrod tube on the way from Van Cafe. By the time it gets here I'll have done the fuel system cleanout. By then one of you may have an additive (Sea Foam type) suggested for the fuel system cleanout.

There you have it. Adjenette - I'd be willing to bet you have the exact thing going on. Your picture is exactly what my view was only a few hours ago. Now they're all nicely lined up.

Having a #6 at the moment in celebration of apparently yet another bullet dodged in this convoluted effort. What do you think?

DougM
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1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1988 Toyota Supra 5 speed targa, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader

[dobryan]

If it was me I'd take the time to pull the tank when it is empty (it is not very hard to do) and take a look inside to see just how bad it is. May be time for a new tank and seals. They are not that expensive and I would hate for more gunk to get into the system even after your cleaning of the tank.
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[syncrodoka]

[dubbified]

horrible stuff. I'm glad I yanked my tank, all evap components, and fully replaced everything to the engine, rebuilt engine.

Hope it all gets worked out.

[IdahoDoug]

Yes, the syncro tank is very difficult and time consuming as its back at the firewall above the tranny. So, won't be pulling it. Its also a molded poly tank that is more puncture resistant than steel. Should be inert to any cleaners. Any suggestions on fuel tank cleaners?

Gave the Syncro a reassuring pat on the way out the door this morning. Promised it a drive this weekend...
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1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1988 Toyota Supra 5 speed targa, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader

[Wildthings]

One of the things I have long done when starting an engine that has sat for a long while is dump a quart of 2-cycle oil or synthetic oil into the tank. This along with dumping some oil down into the spark plug holes, has probably saved me this fate.

Of course most engines that have sat for many years have such ratty heads that the valve guides are already so well worn that it would take a lot to bind them up.

[jackbombay]

Laquer thinner will certainly dissolve just about anything petroleum based, but the problem will be getting it to splash around the upper parts of the tank :-/ unless you want to spend ~$180 on Lt to just fill the tank all the way up, but then you would still have to dispose of it.

I imagine that there is a band of varnish around the inside of the tank at the level that the fuel was at for the 7 years that the van sat, and when you cleaned the tank and refilled you refilled the tank to a higher level than that band, and the fresh gas dissolved that band, what about filling it up with gas and letting it sit for a week and then disposing of the gas? It would be cheaper than laquer thinner and gas does seem to have the capability to dissolve the varnish, but probably at a slower rate than laquer thinner would.
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[dobryan]

[xoo00oox]

[dubbified]

again, why are you rationalizing not just replacing the tank?

GUnna toss something in there to soften it, and what.. cause it to run through your engine?

Remove the offending parts, replace them as 7 years is alot of time.

Proactive mainteannce, vs reactive.

[mariusstrom]

[syncrodoka]

[IdahoDoug]

I'm liking the solution in the tank. Bumming that as I recall it had 13 friggin gallons of fuel in it when I drained the 7 year old fuel. It reeked like nothing I've ever smelled and the garage stank like it for weeks even though I spilled very little of it and cleaned that up. I wonder if it started full and evaporated down to 13g? Yowza.

Anyhow, no way I'm pulling that tank and if you read a few threads on it you'd understand that it's about the worst thing to do on a Syncro - worse than a starter replace if you have the rear locker.

So, any thoughts on what to put in it? Filling it with fresh gasoline's gonna suck as to disposal and even filling but it does sound like a sound solution. Get it? Hah!

Since the fuel's gonna get tossed anyhow, what about filling the tank with diesel? I've heard it is a more powerful cleaner. Or gasoline but put in a gallon of laquer thinner? Etc. Lots of possible things here since the plan is going to be 15 gallons of whatever and then dealing with it....

DougM
_________________
1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1988 Toyota Supra 5 speed targa, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader

[mariusstrom]

[mariusstrom]

Interesting idea - find something higher density than the lacquer thinner. Fill mostly with high-density substance, let lacquer thinner float on surface and work the roof of the tank. Drain some of the high-density stuff every day, let the lacquer thinner work its way down the tank. Might be more time than you want to spend on it, though, and wouldn't get a multi-day soak in any part of the tank.
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