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Review and impressions GoWesty +2 progressive springs
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Jon_slider
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 7:41 am    Post subject: Review and impressions GoWesty +2 progressive springs Reply with quote

I have fallen in love with my GW +2 American Progressive springs.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


What made the whole system come together was to bring my street tire pressure down by 10psi.

I had been running 50 psi and this made the wheels bounce in a way that made the progressive springs too active.

Dropping to 40 psi has resulted in a ride that is as smooth as butter, even over washboard.

I can't say enough good about these springs.

The ride is much softer than anything I have driven before. I have adapted my attitude to enjoy riding like a Pink Cadillac, instead of expecting a ride like a Beemer.

fwiw, even though the progressive coils are compressed they do not act the same as a shim. On rebound the progressive softens the wheel drop. And unlike a shim, the coils that touch dont seem to make the spring rate harder, the way a linear spring reacts to a shim.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


From what I can tell, the progressive springs love to eat small bumps for breakfast.

The springs produce a front ride height of 20.5", at first I was very uncomfortable at that height, having never been there.. but I am loving the 2" increase in ground clearance, and the very noticeable increase in approach and departure angle.

Betty is really excited about her new legs, she thinks she looks BadAss! Before the upgrade Betty used to get a lot of admiring looks, but now its over the top, even the older guys are dropping to their knees in front of her.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Betty also got the new GW Fox Shocks.. they are amazing! With 8 adjustable damping settings you can pretty much dial in as much or as little damping as you like for the terrain you are on.

Truth be told, with 4 new knobs, Betty just cant stop playing with herself. She highly recommends the GW progressive springs, and the Fox shocks.

review of the Fox shocks here
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=502821&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
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Last edited by Jon_slider on Sat Mar 17, 2012 4:03 pm; edited 2 times in total
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presslab
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice job Jonathan, Betty is looking better than ever.

Jon_slider wrote:
I have adapted my attitude to enjoy riding like a Pink Cadillac, instead of expecting a ride like a Beemer.


Is it safe to say the softer springs have compromised the performance on asphalt?

Your front ride height is 20.5", do you know how much droop you have when the wheel is unweighted?

Do you have a picture of the entire rear spring at normal ride height? I'm curious to see what the lower coils look like.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice write up John. Are these the old H&R/ Gowesty springs or the new springs that just came out?
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Terry Kay
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Progressive springs are the way to go for getting the suspension where you want it..

I have a qustion here though about the GW issue units.

I know full well that there isn't much spring to get progessive with, they just aren't long enough to get much of a wind in the coils.
Those sure do look like they are binding sitting still.
They don't look like a dual rate spring eiither--the coils look as though they are tight on each wind.

Any suspension banging going on in your Van when you wack a pot hole or divet in the road?

Anyway--you did this oe right.
Get the ride height set up first--then add the Fox shocks to match the springs--
Looks good.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glad you like 'em Jon. Nice to see a positive experience after much online snickering about the touching coils.
TK, I have these springs with OME shocks and I do get a "banging" in the front, where the coils don't touch, but not the rear. I thought it was my shocks topping out.
My setup, with stock motor, the front sits higher than the rear so I may have to add spacers at the rear. Not sure if it will affect the springs' performance.
Otherwise I'm enjoying the ride too.
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levi
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The coils making contact with each other seems to be explained on the gowesty site:

http://www.gowesty.com/ec_view_details.php?id=23503&category_id=391&category_parent_id=

They state that these are designed for vans with the stock wbx, and not heavier motors.

The pictures at the bottom show the coils are not touching, although this is probably a pic of a 7 passenger too, even lighter weight, so when you add the weight of a westy, stuff being carried along, a slightly heavier engine, there goes a big chunk of your initial progression, or maybe all of it.

Apparently even so, it's a great set-up, and I'd like it on my van. Wink
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Levi the pictures on the GoWesty website show a van on lift with no wheel/tire
on it. I have seen the springs installed on a pass syncro with
a stock motor and they still had coils touching.
Having followed Jon's progress and different upgrades
over the years you can be sure be is giving an honest
and experienced review.
I personally can't wrap my mind around how with the coils
touching it's no more than a spacer. I just recently spent some
time on the phone with a well know syncro specialist who
really took the time to help me get headed in the right direction
to deal with my own suspension. It's very difficult to make a decision
buying the correct products to achieve your desired results as
prices for suspension upgrades are expensive. So when
someone like Jon takes the time to share his experiences
with honesty and detail as he did it helps us all. (with a little
well deserved bragging thrown in for good measure). Nice Van
Jon!
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levi
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yeah that's true Smile , and I also thought the same as your comment about them acting as a spacer, http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4...p;start=20
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Jon_slider
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

> new springs

GW +2 AMERICAN Progressive springs.

> Is it safe to say the softer springs have compromised the performance on asphalt?

no, absolutely not
the spring system once tuned with proper inflation, and alignment, is extremely stable, predictable, and comfortable. There is more body lean, but the wheels track true, and feel like they have very good contact with the road surface.

it actually does not matter which degree of damping you use, the ride and tracking of the progressive springs is nothing short of astounding, to me.

> Your front ride height is 20.5", do you know how much droop you have when the wheel is unweighted?

front full droop, wheel center to fender lip is 22.5". "Full" compression 18.5

Front suspension range, 2" up travel, 2" down travel, total 4" range

"Full" compression was measured in this position (I am not postive is that was complete compression) Do you know the stock suspension articulation and range values?
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Rear ride height 21", full droop 23 5/8", "full" compression 20 5/8"

Rear suspension range, 1 1/8" up travel, 2 1/8" down travel, total 3.25" range

I have placed some more images of the springs here:
https://picasaweb.google.com/sliderjon/FoxShocksAndGoWestyLiftSpringsOnASyncro?
including driver rear
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Now for the radical departure
I tune my tire pressure to match sidewall height, by measuring wheel center to ground at each corner. I am at 14.5" all around, by using 40psi driver front, 45 psi PF, 50psi PR, and 55psi, Driver Rear.

I have also scaled the fox shock settings, using 4 at DF, 5PF, 6PR, 7DR

the ability to tune the system is ... insert superflative adjective here.. amazing..

I am finding it extremely stable in crosswinds, corners beautifully, works over speedbumps, and is so stable on the freeway I think Ive found suspension nirvana.

> I personally can't wrap my mind around how with the coils touching it's no more than a spacer.

maybe this helps
think of what happens when the spring extends with a spacer.. since the spring is compressed, it tends to extend with more force than if with no spacer right?

with the progressive, the downward release of energy is smaller, because the compressed softer part of the progressive does not spring back with as much force as a spring with a spacer..

so extension is softer with progressive than with spacer

compression is a bit harder to imagine, but here is my current best model
when the progressive portion of the spring is pressed together, because the are soft, there is less resistance to compression than with a spring that has a spacer, which increases the resistance of the spring to compress further.. a spacer raises the spring rate.

with a progressive, the soft coils touching does not raise the spring rate, it just absorbs load on the softer coils (it might be better to call the soft coils, close coils.. as closer coils dont rebound as far apart, nor do they resist being moved together completely, as coils that are further apart.. so there is actually no change in spring rate between the close coils and the wide coils, its more about whether the coils are going to touch..

back to the concept
when a spring with a spacer hits an obstacle, it resists compression more than a progressive spring that has the upper coils touching.. thats my experience.. the ride is not noticeably harsher on the heavy corner, Driver Rear on my westy.. It is not more prone to compressing, as it is supported by enough air and damping, to cope with the extra weight at that corner..

the van weighs 2300 lbs front axle, 2700 rear axle, total 5000. Besides the westy cabinetry, I have a Gary Lee swing on the DR, with a 62lb wheel on it..

It took me a change in expectations to appreciate the softer ride, and most of all it took reducing my tire inflation to match the softer springs. I also had to accept sitting way up there, without fearing that would compromise my CV's.. sometimes I have considerations that are non issues..

at first I hated the springs and regretted the shocks cost, but then I decided to figure out how to set the system up to get the absolute best possible outcome.. the more I accepted the ride smoothness, the more I realized how cool and versatile the setup is.

fwiw, my tires are rated [email protected] 35psi on my tire is similar in load capacity to a 215x75x15 inflated to 48psi.. point being, I am by no means underinflated at 40psi.. Im still running way above minimum safe inflation..

beware, geekness ahead
I converted the inflations to percentages of total load carried by each corner.
40 psi---21%---driver front
45 psi---24%---passenger front
50 psi---26%---passenger rear
55 psi---29%---driver rear
Results of above inflations, front axle 45%, rear axle 55%

crosscheck, what percent of 5000 is 2300.. =46%
this suggests approximate confirmation that the inflation variances front and rear totals, are in proportion to the actual axle weights I obtained at a certified truck scale.

that is to support my belief that each corner is inflated to matching sidewall height, and hence each corner should interact with the suspension similarly..

normally, on a westy, if you inflate all 4 tires the same, or even just the 2 rears the same, you can see that the driver rear tire sidewall bulges more, and measurements will confirm that the driver rear axle sits closer to the ground.. Measuring wheel center to ground.

About my front end, because I have adjustable spring perches, your ride height might be different. About my rear, I only used 1 shim, on the closet side, to level the rear, but I have a heavier than stock motor, and my trailing arms have raised perches, 2.5" tall, so I have no idea what your ride height would be with +2.. but fwiw, if you agree that a syncro stock ride height spec is 19", then 21" is exactly +2 from that.. and if you agree stock syncro front ride height is 18.5.. then 20.5 is exactly +2 also Smile

anybody care to enter the fray with the ride height dimensions of a stock syncro <G>

My testing has been done both on pavement, at freeway speeds and offroad.
The GW American Progressive spring system, absolutely excells in the ability to meet both road and pavement needs.. (no Im not getting paid for this informercial), and no, the comments Im making about the springs do not require that you use Fox Shocks..

disclaimer, I am by no means a suspension expert, even if I sound like one on the internet..
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 7:57 pm    Post subject: Review and impressions GoWesty +2 progressive springs Reply with quote

Jonathon,
In regards to your wheel travel. I guarantee you are getting and useing far more wheel travel than you indicated. Check how much of the shock shaft has the dust wiped off. Test this by slipping a plastic wire tie around the shaft and tighten it down near the upper end of the shaft. I think you will be surprised at how far the plastic tie gets pushed down the shaft as your suspension works. Even on the street it will travel quite a bit. Some streets are really hard on suspension systems.
The reason this suspension feels so good off road is because it is traveling a great deal keeping the wheels in contact with the ground without tossing the body and occupants around. Yet you may never bottom it out completely. Not that it won't bottom out if you hit something hard enough or have the shocks adjusted too soft. Keep us informed.
By the way I don't get paid for this either, but it's interesting.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

> the shock shaft has the dust wiped off

2.5" shiny on DR, thats the side with the 1/2" closet shim
3" shiny on PR, this is at rest, so add 2 5/8" droop, total 5 5/8" travel.. 3" compression, 2 5/8" extension

> Not that it won't bottom out if you hit something hard enough or have the shocks adjusted too soft

I find it very difficult to bottom out when testing over speedbumps

I did bottom out Driver Front, offroad crossing a hole downhill, on damper 2, in 2nd gear.. trying to catch up with the Blue Tornado
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


for the speed I was going, I think damper 3 would have helped.. slowing down would have helped too..
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 6:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Varying tire pressure may work with Jon's van as it does not have a VC.
Matching spring rates to shock valving at all four corners is how I am working with this set of shocks.
Having the same spring rate at all four corners of a Syncro, especially a Westy is not ideal IMHO.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

> Varying tire pressure may work with Jon's van as it does not have a VC.

There is no impact on a VC because changing inflation does not change tire size. The rolling tread circumference stays the same. (even when the rolling diameter changes. in fact, rolling diameter is equalized by matching sidewall heights, so there is actually more difference in rolling diameter when using equal tire pressures, because the DR tire on a westy will bulge more)

Equal sidewall heights equalizes spring response and tire wear, and improves handling, including in wind, even for a 2wd.

Try matching sidewall heights and see for yourself. I have not found any downside to the practice.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jon_slider wrote:
>

There is no impact on a VC because changing inflation does not change tire size. The rolling tread circumference stays the same.



actually it does, see link below to pdf that discusses using the rolling diameter change to monitor tire pressure. Graph in paper shows circ change on 2 low profile tires.


http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pdf/esv/esv19/05-0082-O.pdf

edit, and this excerpt:

"The rolling radius of the tire becomes smaller in proportion to the rate of deflation and therefore the wheel speed of the deflated tire increases. Most indirect TPMS give a warning by comparing wheel speed signals from the ABS. Here, the sensitivity of rolling radius change caused by the deflation is higher in the case of low aspect ratio tires (including runflat tires) than that in the case of high aspect ratio tires such as 82% series."


It is just a trivial point but as the subject was brought up I thought it might be of interest.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jon_slider wrote:
> the shock shaft has the dust wiped off

2.5" shiny on DR, thats the side with the 1/2" closet shim
3" shiny on PR, this is at rest, so add 2 5/8" droop, total 5 5/8" travel.. 3" compression, 2 5/8" extension

> Not that it won't bottom out if you hit something hard enough or have the shocks adjusted too soft

I find it very difficult to bottom out when testing over speedbumps

I did bottom out Driver Front, offroad crossing a hole downhill, on damper 2, in 2nd gear.. trying to catch up with the Blue Tornado
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


for the speed I was going, I think damper 3 would have helped.. slowing down would have helped too..


Jon,
Good to hear that you are happier with your ride

With the weight of these vehicles, there is no suspension which won't ( shouldn't ) bottom out on occasion. If you build a suspension which won't bottom out, the spring rate would be astronomically high and the ride quality would suffer greatly.

Looking at the picture of your rear spring from the back, it looks like the compression free travel left over between the coils is close to what you report the compression shock travel to be ( clean shaft ) of 2.5-3 ". The rear side of the spring looks to have about 3", but the front side is probably less. Maybe you can measure the free space on the front side and report..

So it sure looks like the spring will completely bind on compression before the bump stop hits...I doubt the distance between upper and lower bump stop is less than 3" at ride height. Maybe you can measure that and report ?

2.5" inch spacer on the trailing arm ( wow ) and an additional 1/2" rubber spacer on top seems to indicate that these springs are very low rate if that is what is needed to get a level ride height

The weight of your syncro is not overly heavy. 5000 lbs is pretty typical for a camper. There are many syncros heavier that yours even with lighter motors.

So I would expect these springs to require rear spacers for most syncros

You report a total travel of 5 5/8" at the rear, this is significatly less than the shock travel length of 9"...

I understand that the compressed coils don't act as solid spacer on the rebound, but the rate of the soft stage does influence how much traction is "put down". If the soft stage is so soft that it doesn't push down much more than the weight of the wheel, then that wheel won't bite into the ground as much at extended lengths compared to a linear spring.

It would be interesting to put a scale under a fully drooped wheel and measure the pressure required to bind up the soft stage...
In order to isolate the spring pressure, the spring should be removed for the base value first.

Disclaimer : I am not anti GW and am I not trying to push any alternate products.


Enjoy the ride Wink

Eric
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

> The rolling radius of the tire becomes smaller in proportion to the rate of deflation and therefore the wheel speed of the deflated tire increases

I see what you mean.. which actually goes to support my idea that equal sidewall heights is a good idea.

If you inflate all 4 tires equally, on a westy with a heavy driver rear corner, that tire sidewall will be more compressed, unless you match it to the other tires, by raising the pressure at that corner.

equal tire pressure will only have equal sidewall height, on a vehicle with equal corner weights.. a Westy is not that..

> I doubt the distance between upper and lower bump stop is less than 3" at ride height. Maybe you can measure that and report ?

the bump stops seem to be about 5" apart

> If the soft stage is so soft that it doesn't push down much more than the weight of the wheel, then that wheel won't bite into the ground as much

I think we are mistaken to speak of soft coils. they are just closer together, the rate is the same, but the close coils lean on each other sooner, which increases the rate progressively. I dont have any sense of loss of ground contact, in fact, it seems improved.

Also the idea that the spring is being defeated by the coils touching, does not feel like what is happening when riding in the van, the springs seem to have a lot of suppleness and travel.. I dont feel the coils binding, there is no banging at the driver rear corner on compression..

I have a 2.5" perch on both trailing arms because it offsets the weight of my motor, which is not stock weight. My rear axle carries 400 more pounds than my front axle.

When I used .org springs on those perches, I needed 3 shims on DR, 2 more than I use now. The org ride height was 20.5 at DR, my current ride height is 21.. I think that means the GW springs are 1.5" taller than the .orgs I had, which were new, but old stock. My rear .org springs, off the car, on the floor, are 11" tall. I dont have the dimension of the GW +2 on the floor.. nor do I know the dimension of a stock rear spring on the floor, do you?

I dont think I will be measuring my spring fronts, as my configuration is not stock.. I put a message in to a friend with GW +2 Americans like mine, on his Syncro Westy with Gary lee tire rack like mine. His spare weighs just 6 lbs less than mine .. his trailing arm is stock, and so is his motor, and he does not have adjustable front perches.. will let you know his ride heights, it will be more relevant to others considering the lift amount GW +2's produce. His van weight, though not known, is possibly close to mine as he carries full gear for Baja travels, including a rocket box full of gear.

> It would be interesting to put a scale under a fully drooped wheel and measure the pressure required to bind up the soft stage...

I think that sort of effort is best spent on a Van with stock trailing arms. Dont judge by my Van, it is not stock.

Im finding the GW springs work great and whoever engineered them knows a lot more than I do about suspension design.

and fwiw, the GW site does not say one cant use these springs with heavy westies with heavy motor upgrades, just that it may require shims.. Just like any other spring would need if it did not have adjustable perches, assuming the springs are the same load rating on both sides..
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some of the data wolfsburg4x4 requested.. GW +2 Americans on a very heavy syncro westy with a spare tire on the driver rear.. stock motor, stock trailing arms

Driver Rear ride height 18.25" with 1 shim, driver side only, to level the closet and spare tire
Driver Front 18.25" no shims

Compared to my van, he is 2.25 lower in front, and Im on the lowest setting of my Fox perches. He is 2.75" lower than I am in the rear, I have custom body lift perches on my trailing arms. His van has not been weighed, but I would guess hes near 5000lbs+, like I am..
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jon,

You took the best approach to getting your vehicles suspension back up to par--plus---

I've used dual rate / progessivly wound spings on many coiled spring equipt vehicles--Vanagons included, and never have been dissapointed with their load bearing qualities, and the ride always has been as good, if not better than stock.

The only problem I had was finding the correct shocks with the correct extended length.
This was back in the day prior to computer's--( the first several sets I installed )
I just sat at my desk with a Gabriel/ Monroe/ GM parts book and looked for the right extended length & shock body length.
It took awhile but the end result was always good.

There is nothing nicer than a vehicle that sits right, rides right, plus allows you more weight handling capacity--without bottoming out.
For towing you can't possibly get any better.

Nice Job.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the kind words Terry..

Update on the springs

Im enjoying them very much and have found I like the Fox shocks on higher damping levels than I initially used. This tamed the jiggles, and allows me to run higher inflation pressures. 50psi, instead of 40.

Today the Driver Rear had a second shim added, still none on the Passenger Rear. The Van is back to 21" at the rear on both sides.

There has been 1/2" of spring sag in the rear.

While we had the Driver Rear Shock un bolted at the top, so it was fully extended, I measured from the zip tie to the base of the shock, and found a total of 6" of piston shaft travel.
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I found after a trip to Death Valley that the Passenger Front axle was rubbing on the Fox Shock Spring Perches again, so the front spring perches were raised for a second time to prevent the axle contact, in this case .75 of a turn on the Driver Front and 1.5 turns on the PF, producing a side to side level front ride height of 20.25".

There has been a 1/2" spring sag in the front. I actually am glad to have been able to raise the spring perches to compensate for the sag, because it puts the spring perches further away from the axles. And I prefer the ride height closer to 20, than 20.5 in front.

I think the washboard in Death Valley is responsible for maxing out the upward front suspension travel, and revealing that the spring perches needed more clearance from the axles. The van has now had 2 additional shim and spring perch adjustment sessions since initial installation. Im hoping it will stabilize now.

Im also happier to have the front minimum ride height at 20.25 than I was with it at 20.5.. I like the stance of the Van better.

The Springs were installed a month ago, and Ive driven about 3000 miles on them, including about 5 hours of Death Valley Washboard Roads, plus offroading trips to Big Sur, and Hollister, and many trips through Highway 17, which is a narrow, twisting, fast paced, heavily trafficked pass between the coastal mountains of Santa Cruz. Requires precision to navigate safely, and I find the springs totally controllable and predictable when paired with appropriate tire inflation and shock damping settings.
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Jon_slider
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Joined: April 11, 2007
Posts: 5091
Location: Santa Cruz, Crowdifornia
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Update.

I have removed the GoWesty +2 front springs because I had to run a 21" ride height to keep the shocks from hitting my front axles. I wanted the option to lower my ride height to 20", which I now can.

I have installed the GoWesty +0 springs, and now there is No chance of the axle hitting the shock, and I can choose any ride height I want, both +-1" higher or lower without concern for my axles.

The +0 springs are noticeably softer than the +2. The +0 appear to be made from slightly thinner stock than the +2

I liked the spring rate of the +2 better on highway curves. The +0 spring allows more body roll than the +2 in fast curves and wind.

I drive Highway 17 between Santa Cruz and San Jose often. It is narrow, 2 lanes mountain road, that climbs and then drops down the other side, people go fast, and there is very little margin for error. There is a mix of tourists, semi trucks, and BMW equipped yuppie commuters. Think of one of the scariest high speed, high traffic load mountain pass roads you can imagine, white knuckles and all. Then remember Im driving a lifted Vanagon Syncro. The fact the vehicle can keep up and track in the fast lane, says a lot about the state of tune my suspension has achieved. otoh, my Syncro is expected to do double duty, by crawling offroad. Given that fact, the +0 springs are optimized for offroad.

The +0 ride really comfy both offroad, and on pavement in normal highway conditions. Coupled with the adjustable damping of Fox Shocks, GW springs provide an excellent range of function both on pavement and on dirt.

of the springs I have tried, the +0 are softest, the +2 are stiffer than the +0, but less stiff than my old .org springs, which excelled on Hwy 17 with OME Shocks.. OTOH, the GW springs and shocks are mind blowing offroad, on washboard, and crawling over obstacles.

on a side note, when we changed the springs we found that my driver front Fox Shock has a leak. Im considering doing the warranty repair dance and not loving the downtime it creates. GW requires the shock sent to them, so they can send it to Fox, before the shock is repaired and returned to me.

I go driving in Big Sur with 2 friends who also runs Fox Shocks. One of them also had a Fox Shock develop a leak that was warrantied. It is not inexpensive to pull a front shock from a Syncro. But if it was about money, then a Syncro makes no sense anyway.. Its about fun though, and when Im grinning ear to ear, I forget about the costs Smile
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