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5-Cylinder Diesel Characteristics
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snowsyncro
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 7:16 pm    Post subject: 5-Cylinder Diesel Characteristics Reply with quote

Hey,

At Zeitgeist 13's suggestion, I am pulling some comments out of the Limey build thread to here. The commentary was on the nature of diesel compression pulses versus gasoline engines. Of course that applies to any number of cylinders, but I am particularly interested in 5-cylinder engines, and there is lots of other places where 4-cylinder diesels are regularly discussed.

The 5 cylinder engine has a reputation as a transmission killer. Particularly the diesel. While this may be true, there is lots of evidence pointing to that, I am of the view that is more likely a result of abuse. Not intentional abuse, but abuse just because you can. You can push heavy non-aerodynamic boxes over mountain passes at high speeds, even towing a trailer if you want, pushing the transmission well beyond its design limits. But you can do this with any engine that has enough power. What I am interested in is the specifics of the 5-cyl diesel, for example its propensity to shake apart reverse/G-gear synchronizers.

Anyway, there are lots of things that can be discussed here, I have spent quite a lot of time trying to get answers, and there is some good info in other forum. The post I am moving is this one...

[moved here from the Limey build thread]

I also think Derek's analogy is a good one, diesel combustion pressure vs time is 'squarish' but perhaps not as extreme as the image that conveys. There is no doubt, I don't think, that diesel combustion forces are more impulsive, and that forces at lower RPM, can be much higher for a diesel than for a gasoline engine, and I think that contributes to the problem. I studied internal combustion engines way back when I was in school, and I don't recall the combustion force vs time profiles being that dramatically different. But that was a long time ago, so I am interested in doing some research on more modern engines. I will report back what I find out. I am quite interested in this, as I am hanging on to the notion of using a 5-cyl TDI, despite all the wisdom pointing away from this as being a sensible choice.

I think Mike has summed it up perfectly. Manufacturers continue to use 5-cyl engines, and diesels, with great success, even in high-end cars like Volvo, Audi, Mercedes etc. So there is no inherent obstacles, but resolving the noise and vibration problems with diesels takes a lot of expensive engineering, and tuned components.

Meantime, here is a graph of diesel combustion pressures in a 5-cylinder Mercedes diesel. Top is 700RPM idle, middle is 2400RPM full load max torque, bottom is 4200RPM full load max power. I think in most diesel engine design they are aiming for constant pressure combustion, and you can clearly see the 'squarish' nature of the pressure pulse.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


RonC

P.S. 80 bar is nearly 1200 psi, so you can see the pressures are quite high.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, here are my musings on the topic. Those 5 cylinder Mercedes diesels were indirect injection engines with pre-combustion chambers. That design slowed the cylinder pressure rise which is why they were quieter than direct injection (all other things - - such as additional sound insulation - - being equal) and is also why they could rev quite high for diesels.

Direct injection has a more harsh cylinder pressure rise unless the injection is split into multiple events. The Audi 1T and AEL are first-generation TDi designs and as such have only the pilot injection and the main injection, so the pressure-rise was still quick, just less noisy.

Anyway, it seems to me that the only way to make the weak vanagon transaxles last with these engines, apart from limiting the use of full power, is to use a dual mass flywheel or a very heavy single mass flywheel, both of which should assist in dampening the torque impulses. Oh, and perhaps a clutch disk with a good deal of vibration damping might help too.

On the vanagons, we are starting with a design not intended to absorb the torque levels these 2.5 litre TDi engines can produce. I don't think there is anything inherent in the 5-cylinder design that damages these transaxles. These engines, in fact, have overlapping power strokes, unlike four-cylinder engines. The reason they do the damage, I believe, is the torque. I am sure that a 2.0 PD 140 ( a 4-cylinder) would do just as much damage to the vanagon transaxle, if not more. By the way, the Audi AAN 20V turbo gasoline engine is a torque monster with a stock 260 ft/lbs 230 HP easily bumped up to 400 hp.
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Zeitgeist 13
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for starting this thread. As I've mentioned before, I firmly believe that torque is the issue with these premature transaxle failures, and not the number of cylinders involved. It may very well be that TDIs, which produce their peak torque at relatively low RPMs do contribute to these issues, but I'm highly skeptical that a five cylinder will do more damage than a four cylinder tweaked to produce the same output.

In a couple of threads it's been theorized that the manufacturers have invested in a variety of special measures to deal with the peculiar noise, resonance/impulse and torque characteristics of five cylinder turbo diesel engines. As some are aware around here, I kind of geek out on one particular MB chassis; the 124. These cars were produced with 4,5 and 6 cylinder diesel variants. I'm quite familiar with the 5 (OM602) and 6 (OM603/606) cyl. turbodiesels, and can assure you that there is no difference in the engine/trans mounts, noise encapsulation, or transmission configuration between these two, or for that matter with their gasser counterparts. The two engines use different transmissions, but that's due to the higher torque output of the sixer, and not some resonance/impulse issue with the fiver. Smaller six cylinder gas engines and NA (six cyl.) diesels use the exact same transmission as the fivers.

I think rather than pointing fingers at engine designs that "theoretically" contribute to known issues and failure modes in these transmissions, we should collectively be searching for modifications which can help these aging transaxles handle the increased torque loads they'll be subjected to as existing and new engine swaps become available. For reasons only known to VW engineers at the time, they designed these transmissions for a specified torque range, and that's routinely exceeded by a fair amount of the latest engine swap options on the market.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 4:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Howesight -- excellent comments, and right on the mark, I think. I have a dual-mass flywheel presently, but I have started a search for an appropriate heavy single mass flywheel. I am going to see if Mike Ghia has any mass info on those flywheels he is looking at. And yes, that illustration is a prechamber engine -- I am almost certain that is an OM 617 A.

@Zetigeist 13 -- I got that illustration from a 1978 SAE paper on the development of the OM617 A engine. They don't comment much on any problems that might be unique to 5-cylinders. The only thing I noticed was in the section about noise level. They make this comment:

"A special problem of the 5-cylinder-engine is the beat of the 2nd and 2.5th order, which on the new TC engine could be solved perfectly by very careful tuning even of engine-external components."

They say "could be", not 'were', which makes you think, that at that point at least, nothing special had been done.

RonC
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zeitgeist 13 wrote:
Thanks for starting this thread. As I've mentioned before, I firmly believe that torque is the issue with these premature transaxle failures, and not the number of cylinders involved. It may very well be that TDIs, which produce their peak torque at relatively low RPMs do contribute to these issues, but I'm highly skeptical that a five cylinder will do more damage than a four cylinder tweaked to produce the same output.

In a couple of threads it's been theorized that the manufacturers have invested in a variety of special measures to deal with the peculiar noise, resonance/impulse and torque characteristics of five cylinder turbo diesel engines. As some are aware around here, I kind of geek out on one particular MB chassis; the 124. These cars were produced with 4,5 and 6 cylinder diesel variants. I'm quite familiar with the 5 (OM602) and 6 (OM603/606) cyl. turbodiesels, and can assure you that there is no difference in the engine/trans mounts, noise encapsulation, or transmission configuration between these two, or for that matter with their gasser counterparts. The two engines use different transmissions, but that's due to the higher torque output of the sixer, and not some resonance/impulse issue with the fiver. Smaller six cylinder gas engines and NA (six cyl.) diesels use the exact same transmission as the fivers.

I think rather than pointing fingers at engine designs that "theoretically" contribute to known issues and failure modes in these transmissions, we should collectively be searching for modifications which can help these aging transaxles handle the increased torque loads they'll be subjected to as existing and new engine swaps become available. For reasons only known to VW engineers at the time, they designed these transmissions for a specified torque range, and that's routinely exceeded by a fair amount of the latest engine swap options on the market.

Couldn't agree more....
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If anything, I would believe a 4cyl diesel is harder on the transmission than a 5cyl. It was mentioned that there is power overlap on the 5cyl so the 'pulses' would be less severe. I too believe it's torque that is killing transmissions.

I couldn't find much related to the OP question, but it seems like the 5cyl rarely came in manual transmission, at least to the States. The only manual 5cyl diesel I have seen is a Canadian Eurovan. Those O2A variant (don't know the eurovan code specifically) transmissions are pretty stout. I believe they are all aluminum case and quite compact. They usually only have issues with synchros going bad and grinding gears. The other cars that came with them were automatics, and with a torque coupling to the transmission, that will dampen a LOT of engine 'pulses'.

I just got my TDI conversion stuff and the flywheel is MASSIVE! I'll weigh it later today, but the whole clutch assembly has to be around 40 pounds. I'm thinking about having a heavier front pulley built to help balance it out. (sort of like the Gene Berg Equalizer pulley http://www.geneberg.com/cat.php?cPath=7_219_2833). I will also be balancing the entire engine rotating mass to increase smoothness in my ALH 4cyl diesel.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Those Canadian 5-cyl diesels (engine code AAB) are naturally-aspirated and have precombustion chambers. They are a very low-power engine (I have one) -- 57 kW (76.4 horsepower) at 3700RPM, 164 N-m (121 ft-lb) from 1800 to 2200 RPM. Would be perfect match for a Syncro transmission, actually. Not enough to hurt anything there, and great fuel consumption. If a person was smart they would use one of those and just tweak up the power a bit. People on the diesel groups have added forced induction to those.

The 5-speed transmission used with that engine in the Eurovan is type 02B. Also used with the 5-cylinder gasoline engine.

RonC
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll go on the record as saying that putting a 5cyl engine in a vanagon is probably not a good idea. Why? Well because unless you NEED 300+lb/ft or 300+hp you can meet your power needs w/1.9 TDI or 1.8t and rather slight modification. Or many other non-VW conversions.
Now then; the way I understand things VW SA decided the vanagon needed more power, this also gave them a chance to ditch the WBX. However they decided this right in the middle of a marginal era of VAG engine development, and we're talking about africa here SA but still..they needed something reliable, proven track record,etc. Long story short they didn't have many good options. The 5cyl was the best option available at the time.
This brings us to the trans issue, I don't think they just started mass producing 5cyl vanagons without considering the transmission. They considered the issue and decided the trans could handle the increased torque. Production was given the green light.
Transmissions started failing at an alarming rate! This prompted a huge response from VW, an outside company was contracted to investigate. I have no evidence but I think two different solutions were developed and implemented.
1. Internal transmission modifications to increase reliability, oiling plates, bearing retainer, etc.
2. External transmission modification, SA trans brace, the purpose of which is open for debate.
They implemented BOTH.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kgold708 wrote:
I'll go on the record as saying that putting a 5cyl engine in a vanagon is probably not a good idea. Why? Well because unless you NEED 300+lb/ft or 300+hp you can meet your power needs w/1.9 TDI or 1.8t and rather slight modification. Or many other non-VW conversions.
Now then; the way I understand things VW SA decided the vanagon needed more power, this also gave them a chance to ditch the WBX. However they decided this right in the middle of a marginal era of VAG engine development, and we're talking about africa here SA but still..they needed something reliable, proven track record,etc. Long story short they didn't have many good options. The 5cyl was the best option available at the time.
This brings us to the trans issue, I don't think they just started mass producing 5cyl vanagons without considering the transmission. They considered the issue and decided the trans could handle the increased torque. Production was given the green light.
Transmissions started failing at an alarming rate! This prompted a huge response from VW, an outside company was contracted to investigate. I have no evidence but I think two different solutions were developed and implemented.
1. Internal transmission modifications to increase reliability, oiling plates, bearing retainer, etc.
2. External transmission modification, SA trans brace, the purpose of which is open for debate.
They implemented BOTH.


That is an excellent summary of the state of things. And your advice is consistent with many others with vast knowledge.

But, not but every human pursuit makes sense. The world would be a pretty boring place if we all did that, I think anyway. This thread is for the fools, who ignoring well-meaning advice to the contrary, are going to forge ahead on this fool's errand.

RonC
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think you're fools, misguided at worst, and bleeding edge pioneers at best! If I hadn't read about wildcat, limey, betty, etc. I would want a 5cyl TDI too! I find the idea of a 5cyl TDI syncro intoxicating. If it needs a UN1 gearbox to be reliable... not so much. It'll be hard to find a lotus esprit in my local scrap yards. Wink
There seems to be a few non-5cyl syncros making the same or more power without making a trans rebuild part of their "maintence schedule" so this problem is of interest to me.
I look forward to seeing how this all plays out, as I have some personal theories on the matter.

KyleG
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For what it's worth, Wildcat does not currently have a 2.5TDI...it has a 1.9mTDI.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello, Wildcat
Sorry about that IDK why I threw you in w/the AEL crowd. How's wildcat doing these days, get things sorted out better? I've got a spare kidney in case you're ever looking to trade her.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

its not wildcat, limey, and betty
its Alaric, Limey, and Betty that are the poster children for 5 cyl driven tranny failures

Here is a listing of all my tranny failures
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6372174#6372174

1. tranny fails because it was only filled with 2 quarts.. oops

2. tranny build fails to hold reverse gear, backing down a hill

3. tranny build fails to hold granny gear, driving down a hill

4. tranny low gear inspection cover cracks, when the bolt behind it comes loose
inside the case, after driving 5 hours of washboard in death valley, aired down
to 24psi, using GW super Foxy shocks.. can you spell vibration?

5. current tranny fails after jerking vans out of sand, and lots of use lugging
uphill relying on torque at low rpm. Failure is uniquely different, the pinion
bearing fails.

here is a list of possible causes
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6371955#6371955
1. Too much torque, remove the motor
2. Remove the nut at the wheel, or, dont lug the motor
3. Remove the big tires
4. Remove the 5.43 ring and pinion
5. Remove the driveshaft, get a 2 piece unit
6. Remove the solid shaft, use a VC
7. Dont decouple, use a VC at all times
8. The tranny is too hot, add a cooler
9. Its the harmonic distortion of the 5th cylinder, get a tuning fork to dispel
the bad vibes

and here are pics and photos, that I have so far, of the SA Tranny Brace
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6384033#6384033

A South African OEM transaxle brace for use with 5 cyl motors paired to 5 speed trannies in T3 Vanagons
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


A South African Syncro brace by Russel Johnston
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


a couple of a SA syncro brace sketches, thanks to David Pulvermacher
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


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And some photos of the twin rib brace built by Derek Bezuidenhout
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and some comments from people in SA that use and build braces:

==

Hi John
I will try to help were i can. I have never owned or built a 5 cylinder TDI syncro before. I did build a 5 cylinder TD about 10 years ago and have had a few 5 cylinder petrols. I mainly use the 4 cylinder TDI's in my vans.
The brace i have just fitted to Deans van is for a 2.6 5 cylinder petrol. If this brace is not fitted to the 5 cylinder petrol
engined vans the gearboxes suffer from oil leaks and in some extreme cases gearbox fractures in the diff casing.
A lot of this is to do with were the engine mounts sit compared to the length of the engine. On acceleration it puts a
lot of pulling force across the gearbox spine. There is also a degree of twisting force appield. A third mount can also be fitted
at the rear as Audi did in the factory. These all help with case strain.
I use decouplers on my vans as-well but had a VC fitted to my last doka and standard 6.136 box with 235 85 16 tires. I initially
didnt have much hope for the box but it lasted me over 3 years with no problems and is still going strong. Not rebuilt either.
This was with lots of off road use. I do put this down to spreading the load even under normal conditions.
I do also use a sports VC with my decouplers so i do have a little shock adsorption in the drive train.
Non of this may be relevant to your gearbox problem but may help.
I will send you a photo later.
Cheers for now
Russel Johnston

===
Hi Jon
I unfortunetly do not have a built up brace at the moment, but can send you my drawings around christmas when I get back home. I have read some of the comments on the forum. When we first fitted the 5 cyl to the T3 transaxels, we straingauged the complete engine and transmission cassings to see what was happening. The 5 cyl motor tends to rock horizontily around where the engine mountings are on the block. The gearbox then flexes around the clutchhousing/ differential area, as this is a weak area of the cassing design. Tha brace then stiffens this area which affectively shifts the reasonance frequency of the engine/ gearbox unit higher. If I recall correctly it goes from around 125Hz to 180Hz. In second order this means moving the peak vibrations up from 3700 rpm to 5400 rpm
Thanks
Derek Bezuidenhout

===

Hi JonS
Just some info that might assist you in improving the reliability of the 5 cyl
Syncro. When VW of SA developed the 2.6 - 5 cyl T3 2wd they had to make various
changes to reduce the 2nd order vibration and gearbox as well as engine oil
temperature levels. These included the following: Engine oil cooler, stiffer
clutch housing, stiffer bracket between the lower part of the clutch housing and
engine block, Stiffening bracket above the gearbox, oil splash plates for the
crownwheel and 5th gear, crownwheel & pinion set with a 7 tooth pinion gear,
fully synthetic gear oil and softer gearbox monting. When we first fitted 5 cyl
engines to the Syncro we found that it had higher vibration levels than the 2wd
drive as the gearbox is both heavier and longer which means a lower resonance
frequency. The bracket which we developed (shown in the attachment archives on
the site dated March 24 2011) is stiffer that the std bracket and reduced
vibration levels to close to the 5spd 2wd levels. (measured at the front end of
the gearbox). The gear oil temperature was also significantly higher than in the
2wd . We measured the oil temperature of different gearoils on a long flat road
with a trailer at max speed to compare the oils. The oil that gave the best
results was Engen SPL which has a GL5+ rating and is specifically developed for
transaxels with hypoid differentials. (Audi Motorsport used this oil in their
Turbo rally and racing vehicles in the 90's). By adding a PTFE additive to this
oil, we saw a further reduction in max oil temperatures. The temperature of the
GL4 rated oils did not stabilize and continued to slowly rise. A GL5 75w-90
synthetic oil developed for transaxle available in the US like Liquimoly or
Mobil should give similar results. From getting a maximum of 20 000 km on the
transaxle we now have 5cyl Syncro's with over 150 000 km's. The only other
concern I have is that the 5cyl diesel would have a higher tortional vibration
than the petrol, so using a duel mass flywheel might also be something to
consider but you would need to add a spacer plate between the engine and the
clutch housing. Also fit a temperature sensor to the gearbox to monitor oil
temperatures.
Derek Bezuidenhout
===
update to add more pictures

Here are some prototype photos of an alternative Syncro brace design my german mechanic came up

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


it avoids running the brace over the center tab on the transaxle, and then needing to curve the brace down, the way this one does
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


by slotting the brace web that ties the two vertical ribs together, this brace can be built from straight stock, no need to waterjet cut curved ribs..
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Profile of a syncro brace built with straight stock, designed by samba member Detlev
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


comparing the curved brace from South Africa to the straight one from Detlev
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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Last edited by Jon_slider on Sun Feb 10, 2013 8:48 pm; edited 4 times in total
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hans j
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks like Ford is actually getting into the 5cyl diesel game...

http://blogs.dieselpowermag.com/6792169/whats-new/inline-five-power-stroke/

I wonder how it will do?

edit: was the 5cyl falling out of favor article in another thread then?
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hans j wrote:
Looks like Ford is actually getting into the 5cyl diesel game...

http://blogs.dieselpowermag.com/6792169/whats-new/inline-five-power-stroke/

I wonder how it will do?

edit: was the 5cyl falling out of favor article in another thread then?


Must have been...this thread is all about making the 5 cylinders work. Looks like an interesting article. Thanks! And I just recently read a review of Ford's new three cylinder.

edit: 312 ft-lbs at 1700 RPM Shocked

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have had the Dual Mass flywheel on my 5cyl AEL TDi rebalanced. They told me it was off by 39 grams. Now it turns out they did it wrong.. seems no one in the USA knows how to do it.

here is the new info:

"Hi Jon
When you balance a 5 cyl flywheel, you first place a specific weight at a specific spot on the flywheel and then balance it, after balancing the weight is removed, giving it the required imbalance.
The mass of the weight and the position it must be placed st, is shown on the Audi flywheel drawing which I had when I modified a solid 2.6 5 cyl flywheel to fit on the 1.9 TDI engine I am running in my Syncro. I am going home for this coming long weekend and will look if I still have this drawing somewhere. This imbalance reduces the first order vibration and does not affect the second order which the gearbox brace reduces, The duelmass part of the flywheel addreses the 2,5th order tortional vibration.
Regards
 Derek Bezuidenhout"

===


Hi Jon
I have found the drawing. The imbalance is given as 213,2 cmg. If I look at the drawing a hole of 1 cm diameter is drilled 2.785 cm deep. Using a density of 7,5 g/cm for cast iron this tells me that around 16.26 g of material is removed. This hole is 13.1 cm from the centre of the flywheel which makes it almost axact to 213 cmg. I will scan the drawing later and send it to you. By placing the flywheel on a printed drawing you can mark the position of the hole. Balancing is easy as you can glue a bolt trimmed to the correct weight into the hole and then balance the flywheel normaly. As for ballancing, all VW and Audi parts are ballanced on their own and do not affect the other parts. The ballace spec is quite good so there is no need for ballancing unless a part has been modified.
Thanks
Derek


===
From Derek in South Africa, here are the pictures of the Dual Mass Flywheel for 5 Cylinder motor, Assymetric Balancing instructions.

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===
here is another set of the flywheel plans, stitched together thanks to David Pulvermacher
"Here are Derek’s flywheel drawings saved to approximately 1:1 scale printing to an A1 sheet.

I have stitched the pieces together in Photoshop, so they won’t be 100% accurate, but they might help……."

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Jon_slider
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Received today from South Africa, made by
"Russel Johnston" <russel235 at yahoo dot com>

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kgold708
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's a sweet looking brace Very Happy , I like that the welds look continuous on that one. Now get out there and um... DON'T. Break something!
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Update, Bettys Tranny brace is installed.

We ended up not using the pictured blue SA one, it will be available for sale, PM me.

Betty will be using this prototype of a Syncro brace with no curves in it, thanks to Detlev.
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it avoids running the brace over the center tab on the transaxle, and then needing to curve the brace down, the way this one does
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by slotting the brace web that ties the two vertical ribs together, this brace can be built from straight stock, no need to waterjet cut curved ribs..
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I will update with a side view photo when available.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Congrats to Detlev, and you. That is the best brace design and implementation yet, by a pretty wide margin IMHO. Elimination of the curvy bits is a major improvement, and the lever arm heading up the bellhousing has a nice wide profile where it attaches to the main beam structure! Fine work really, very nice and fairly simple design.
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