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djkeev
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 4:26 pm    Post subject: 2.1 Alternator bracket Reply with quote

I am curious, I've read and read and read about the 2.1 alternator bracket breaking.

Sadly, I've yet to find (or am too stupid to grasp) exactly what breaks.

Is it the fastening to the case?
The adjustment support arm?
The pivot bracket?

While I've got the unit out and apart, I'd like to fix the issue before it becomes an issue, all seems tight right now.......but that can change down the road!

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

it is the bracket that mounts the alternator base to case that cracks. Here is the GoWesty article on it. I believe Van Cafe has the same preventative fix for this.

http://www.gowesty.com/library_article.php?id=1201
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice to see that you getting all aspects taken care in this rebuilt. I think GoWesty has the backround story and the fix for this, see here:

http://www.gowesty.com/library_article.php?id=1201

Keep up the good work
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insyncro
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tack weld the two parts of the bracket together better than they were when produced.
No issues since.
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djkeev
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ahhhhh...... As I said, I'm just too stupid to grasp! Embarassed

People may knock GoWesty but they sure have a place in this hobby!

Kaching! $$$$$ more to GoWesty!
Add thus to the list of things to purchase. Rolling Eyes

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http://www.gowesty.com/ec_view_details.php?id=4454&category_id=253&category_parent_id=

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

insyncro wrote:
I tack weld the two parts of the bracket together better than they were when produced.
No issues since.


You are saying you weld the two bracket parts together right down in that seam?
How does doing this help?
Isn't the stress still on the two mounting bolts?

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That bracket can't be hard to make! Though one must ask........ Is the effort worth it?

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jaeger74
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seem to be $ 40 for a simple bracket and some bolts, but lets face it:

1. If you make it yourself, how much time will it take to make it and you got a big project going, where you can use that time for better things.

2. They put the time in to think about it and come up with a solution, that is worth supporting.

Just bite the bullet and get it, maybe there will be a back Friday sale or something - and you get some GoWesty bucks back Smile
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jaeger74 wrote:
Seem to be $ 40 for a simple bracket and some bolts, but lets face it:

1. If you make it yourself, how much time will it take to make it and you got a big project going, where you can use that time for better things.

2. They put the time in to think about it and come up with a solution, that is worth supporting.

Just bite the bullet and get it, maybe there will be a back Friday sale or something - and you get some GoWesty bucks back Smile


Yeah........ Gotta agree, can't be stealing ideas for the ideas will stop coming! Long term WE will suffer.
I waste $40 a month in coffee I could make at home for a fraction of the cost! Wink

My only beef is the shipping cost are HUGE with them. I'm making a list........ Think

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insyncro
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have had a few split right in half...hence the extra welds.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I hear you on GoWestys shpping charges. I wish the bus depot would carry some of their stuff ( like the vancafe does ), I can drive to them in 40 minutes and pick up in the store. Still probably a two hour drive for you Dave, but better than CA Smile
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That bracket helps to reduce the weight cantilevered on the mount bolts that attach to the front face of the engine block. It has the added benefit of a carriage bolt that prevents the pivot bolt from spinning when you need to loosen the nut to adjust the belt tension.

Ingenious.
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

An easy fix for those without power steering is the get a power steer mount and then make a short little arm that goes from the PS mount to the alternator pivot bolt. You can do this is you have power steering as well, but it takes more modification to make it work. Adding a power steering bracket and making the link is on my to do list for "new to me" used engine going into my 83 1/2 POS in the next couple of days. I will try Insyncro's extra welds as well.

The original mounts had a square hole for a carriage bolt and the mounts would break through the square edges of the hole. The replacement mount with two round holes works better but the system is still overloaded, the mounting bolts can and do break and you can get damage to the crankcase that isn't all that easy to deal with. Eventually the pivot bore for the alternator will wear bad enough for the alternator to sit cocked at an angle, and I have even had the housing of the alternator crack in two. Pretty sad engineering really.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

looks like an easy bracket to make

that's what i'd do Smile
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I liked Wildthings idea about building a brace in the front off of the power steering bracket, so that's just what I did. I used a 1x1 piece of scrap angle iron and a stack of washers (to get the offset spacing correct) tack welded to the back side. Simple and it provides a lot more support. I also found that the original alternator bracket I had was already welded around the bottom edge.

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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is the brace I built which uses the power steering bracket as an extra support. It is built from 3/16 x 1 1/4" steel bar stock. Note the slight "S" bend to get the ends to line up right.

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I will probably go back and round the corners of the brace for kicks before I am done. You can see one of the extra welds to the OEM bracket peeking out from under the alternator.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wildthings wrote:
Here is the brace I built which uses the power steering bracket as an extra support. It is built from 3/16 x 1 1/4" steel bar stock. Note the slight "S" bend to get the ends to line up right.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I will probably go back and round the corners of the brace for kicks before I am done. You can see one of the extra welds to the OEM bracket peeking out from under the alternator.


Sorry, I don't see his this helps much.
The orange bracket is the alternator /dipstick tube support,
The Blue bracket is the welded alternator support,
The Green bracket is the new support from the PS pump.

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The pivot point that holds the Alternator, the Yellow Dot, is not supported securely.
The Yellow fastening point is a hinge, it can move up or down easily. The plane of the two support members is too much of a straight line to offer support. It's simply a weak member.

Now, if you made a new dipstick support running from the PS bracket to the case support member and bolting to the Alternator bracket as ONE PIECE, ......... You might have some added strength using metal beefy enough.

As built....... Not so much.

Dave
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61Scout
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

djkeev wrote:


The pivot point that holds the Alternator, the Yellow Dot, is not supported securely.
The Yellow fastening point is a hinge, it can move up or down easily. The plane of the two support members is too much of a straight line to offer support. It's simply a weak member.

Now, if you made a new dipstick support running from the PS bracket to the case support member and bolting to the Alternator bracket as ONE PIECE, ......... You might have some added strength using metal beefy enough.

As built....... Not so much.

Dave


The yellow point doesn't swing. It's just a bolt hole that effectively clamps the swing arm of the p/s pump. What Wildthings and I did was to provide an additional brace from that clamping point and extend that over to the alternator bracket. It's easier to think about if you look at the p/s bracket directly from the top.

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I've removed the factory alternator bracket to illustrate my point. Here I've installed the new brace. If you push where the red arrow is it's firm.

It's not going to be as strong as the GW brace because your supporting from the distance of the width of the oem alternator brace, whereas the GW brace supports from the back side close to the block. However, it certainly offers more support than the factory set up.

The weakness in Wildthings design is the brace itself. A flat piece of metal is easier to bend than a piece of angle iron.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The original lower bracket and its fasteners fail readily because the bracket is cantilevered out from the block and takes a high torque load as a result. (I have actually heard this load be referred to as a wrench load, as it is a bit more complicated than just a torque load) By adding the brace like I did the torque load on the original bracket is largely reduced. I would bet you could even run with one of the nuts removed that hold the original bracket to the engine block, at least for a while, whereas with the original set up the studs are sometimes ripped right out of the block from the torque load.

The GW bracket still leaves the OEM bracket with a lot of torque on it, but would certainly help by in transferring some of this load to the pivot bolt and away from the 8mm fasteners. I also don't expect to have any problem with using a piece of bar stock verses angle iron, as the load on the brace is almost 100% tension with no or minimum bending or compression. Note that the added brace almost directly counters the belt load.

The only failure mode I can see is if the power steering bracket it not up to handling the load, but since I don't have power steering on this rig it would be no big deal if the PS bracket were to crack a hundred thousand miles down the road, I will just get another one.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did a similar mod as yours to my previous '87 and it worked real well. I ran with only one bolt in the stock alternator bracket and the extra brace like yours for many thousands of miles with no issues... Very Happy
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wildthings wrote:
The original lower bracket and its fasteners fail readily because the bracket is cantilevered out from the block and takes a high torque load as a result. (I have actually heard this load be referred to as a wrench load, as it is a bit more complicated than just a torque load) By adding the brace like I did the torque load on the original bracket is largely reduced. I would bet you could even run with one of the nuts removed that hold the original bracket to the engine block, at least for a while, whereas with the original set up the studs are sometimes ripped right out of the block from the torque load.

The GW bracket still leaves the OEM bracket with a lot of torque on it, but would certainly help by in transferring some of this load to the pivot bolt and away from the 8mm fasteners. I also don't expect to have any problem with using a piece of bar stock verses angle iron, as the load on the brace is almost 100% tension with no or minimum bending or compression. Note that the added brace almost directly counters the belt load.

The only failure mode I can see is if the power steering bracket it not up to handling the load, but since I don't have power steering on this rig it would be no big deal if the PS bracket were to crack a hundred thousand miles down the road, I will just get another one.


I agree with you Wildthings, re-reading my last comment, it kinda came out wrong. I wasn't trying to badmouth your brace at all, after all I borrowed your idea in the first place Smile A piece as short as this (3-4") really isn't going to make much difference between using flat bar or angle iron. And as you pointed out it's more likely the p/s bracket will fail before the p/s to alt brace. Looks like we both simply used what was laying around the shop. Same result, different approach. And good point on the brace countering the belt load, I didn't think about that, but that's very true.
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Remove the rear wheel bearing housing without messing with the big 46mm nut: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=679507&highlight=

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