Power Generator? vs Battery & Inverter?

matt94gt

Hey all,

Sorry I cant seem to find a master thread for power setups. Im over from the bay window forum but I know lots of you guys have good setups so I came here. Please direct me if there is one and ill post in there.

My plan was to get a renogy foldable 100W panel, 2nd battery and inverter. But I stumbled across this unit:
http://www.goalzero.com/p/140/goal-zero-yeti-1250-solar-generator/27:1/

Seems pretty neat, and its cool that I can use it when not in the bus either. I can get a good deal on it (40% off) which comes out to about $200 over the cost as good battery and inverter I was planning on getting. I think this solution seems neat and simple for me. The only downside is the size.

I would get the generator then the 100W renogy foldable suitcase, I can connect to shore power and I can connect an inline charger to my main battery for when the bus is driving.

Just wanted to get your guys opinion.
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72' Sunroof Bus - Kansas Beige
http://www.vw-mplate.com/mplate-21257.htm

Build thread:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7257521

MarkWard · Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 1:57 pm Post subject:

Do you need it for use outside of the bus? If it will run a standard home refrigerator it sounds like overkill and the recharge times seem very extended. I had a 1000 watt inverter/charger and never really used the inverter feature. Charger feature died and I removed it. I think for camping the consensus seems to be 12 volt accessories and if necessary small sized invertors. Cool looking though.

matt94gt · Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 2:20 pm Post subject:

thatvwbusguy · Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 6:25 pm Post subject:

The GoalZero stuff is nice, I own a couple of their small foldable panels and usually bring one with us when we travel to recharge our phones and batteries for headlamps etc.

With a MSRP of $1,399.00 and a 40% discount you are still looking at $839.99 just for the battery "generator" with the inverter and USB ports. Since we all know that inverters tend to waste a ton of energy, I won't even address the general lack of usefulness when coupled to a small battery bank other than to say that I have helped a lot of people design auxiliary power systems for their vans in the past and many insisted that they needed an inverter. After working with their power needs for a year or two, just about everyone has all but discontinued the use of the inverter in favor of much more efficient ways of utilizing their limited power reserves.

It shouldn't be too difficult to make a complete DIY version of pretty much the same 100Ah power bank, a 100W solar panel and an MPPT charge controller that would work really well inside the van and the cabin, while saving you a nice chunk of cash.

Here is the stuff I would probably go with on a budget minded setup:

Renology 100W Monocrystaline Panel - $149.99
Renology Tracer MPPT Charge Controller 12/24V 20A - $114.00 (allows for future panel expansion)
Trojan 12V Group 27 Deep Cycle Battery (105Ah) - $175.00 (AGM available for about $75.00 more).

This is all time proven gear and comes out to a bit under $450.00.

Add another $50.00 for wiring materials, 12V charging ports, USB ports etc and you still have a system that will easily outperform the GoalZero in every way except the "looking sexy as hell" category.

To make the whole system easy to transport from the van to the cabin, install the battery in a vented marine battery box and lash it to one of the small folding dollies like people use at the airport with a ratchet strap.

Toss in a couple sets of 12V LED strip lights and you are good to go for power outages and spending time at the cabin in style.
_________________
Jay Brown
'85 Zetec Westfalia
Newmarket, NH

If you want others to be happy, practice compassion.
If you want to be happy, practice compassion.

tjet · Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 6:44 pm Post subject:

ThankYouJerry · Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 10:44 pm Post subject:

This folding 100W Renogy panel fits in the Westy luggage rack (I'm fairly sure) and comes with a charge controller for $270 (shipped). What do you think about this one Jay?
http://www.amazon.com/Renogy-Foldable-Suitcase-Bat...rystalline
_________________
1990 Multivan - "Ohana"
1.8T, Auto w/3.27 R&P + Peloquin TBD

thatvwbusguy · Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 11:55 pm Post subject:

Looks pretty good. The charge controller is a PWM type, so it won't be as efficient as an MPPT controller would be. With that said, it is definitely one of the nicer All-In-One folding setups that I have seen.

Renogy hasn't been on the radar long enough to know how they will fare over time, but I wouldn't hesitate to put one on my van at that price. I have seen about a dozen Renogy panels in the past two years and they all have shown good quality control and gotten positive feedback from their owners.

Since Renogy seems to be receptive to their customers requests, you might be able to have them set this folding panel up with a 10A MPPT charger (assuming the depth of the controller fits between the glass panels when folded) for a few bucks more and have an even better product.
_________________
Jay Brown
'85 Zetec Westfalia
Newmarket, NH

If you want others to be happy, practice compassion.
If you want to be happy, practice compassion.

MarkWard · Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2014 5:39 am Post subject:

Bookmarked. Good info. Thank you.

matt94gt · Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2014 2:49 pm Post subject:

Thanks a lot. I was planning on getting that folding Renogy setup a friend has it and it works great. Sure it could have a better controller but I think it's fine for what it is.

I called them a while back and they said if you call you can upgrade the controller to a MMPT but not sure if it's really worth it...is it?

For a battery I was going to go with the vmtanks 125ah agm. Thoughts vs the Trojan I don't mind spending the extra cash.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00ACNO2AO/ref=mp_s_...SY200_QL40

As for no inverter, what do you recommend then? I wasn't aware that they sucked back a lot of juice and I already have this one I was planing on using:
http://www.amazon.com/Xantrex-806-1210-PROwatt-1000-Inverter/dp/B002I04A74

Then I just need wiring, fuses, smart aux battery switcher and a control board with some outlets and some LED strip lights.

I just thought the all in one unit seemed like a cool idea. And I really don't mind spending the extra money it would fit perfect under my rear bench seat.
_________________
72' Sunroof Bus - Kansas Beige
http://www.vw-mplate.com/mplate-21257.htm

Build thread:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7257521

Dampcamper · Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2014 7:32 pm Post subject:

Inverters can really hit the battery hard - basically whatever amps you need at 120 volts, it is ten times that at 12 volts. Volts times Amps = Watts, so if you run at one-tenth the voltage you'll need to supply ten times the amps to make the power. Plus another 5-10 percent for conversion loss. And you want to be careful not to discharge the battery too low as this shortens the life (reduces the number of cycles you'll get) of your batterie$$$.
Opinions abound on how to do a DC system, you can store as much energy as you can afford and want to haul around.
Also - if you're going to power electronics (like a laptop supply?) I'd suggest a "true sine-wave inverter" as opposed to a "modified sine-wave" unit. "Modified sine-wave" is a euphemism for a stepped square wave and not all modern power supplies like those. I work for a "thrifty" (cheap?) outfit and they kept buying and trying larger MSW inverters for their field staff's cars (for laptops) and they just didn't work. We are now installing 300 watt sine-wave units and they work fine.

thatvwbusguy · Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2014 2:09 am Post subject:

The simple answer to whether an MPPT charge controller is worth the price difference is yes. http://www.victronenergy.com/blog/2014/07/21/which-solar-charge-controller-pwm-or-mppt/

I just took a few minutes to put together a list of parts that would make a nice DIY portable solar generator system that would be about the same size as the GoalZero Yeti 1250.

This system includes a 125Ah AGM Battery, a 100W monocrystalline solar panel and a 20A MPPT charge controller. The parts will cost about $800.00 total if you buy everything from amazon. Making a solar generator like this will require some fabrication skills and a few power tools.

Here is the breakdown:

Battery: VMAX SLR125-SAE 12V 125AH AGM Sealed Deep Cycle - $259.99
Specs: 125Ah Size: 13L x 9H x 7D (75Lbs )
http://www.amazon.com/GOAL-ZERO-Yeti-BATTERY-UPGRADE/dp/B00ISDL05K

Case: DEWALT DWST08204 Tough System Case - $61.99
Dimensions: 21L x 15H x 14D
http://www.amazon.com/DEWALT-DWST08204-Tough-System-Extra/dp/B005HNJR0E

Solar Panel: Renogy 100W Monocrystalline 12VDC - $149.99
http://www.amazon.com/RENOGY-Monocrystalline-Photovoltaic-Battery-Charging/dp/B009Z6CW7O

20A MPPT Charge Controller: MPPT Tracer 2210RN - $115.00
http://www.amazon.com/Tracer-2210RN-Charge-Controller-Regulator/dp/B008KWPH12

Battery Charger (120V): NOCO Genius GENM1 - $59.99
http://www.amazon.com/NOCO-GENM1-Waterproof-On-Board-Battery/dp/B00CBTRN26

Folding Hand Truck: Magna Cart 150lb Capacity Aluminum Folding Hand Truck - $34.99
http://www.amazon.com/Magna-Personal-Capacity-Aluminum-Folding/dp/B000HVVSDU

6 Circuit Fuse Block: Blue Sea Systems 5028 - $31.85
http://www.amazon.com/Blue-Sea-Systems-Blade-Block/dp/B000K2MBPA

Dual USB Outlet: Blue Sea Systems 1016 Dual USB Charger Socket - $19.53
http://www.amazon.com/Blue-Sea-Systems-Charger-Socket/dp/B0082CXEI8

12V Power Socket: Blue Sea Systems 1011 12V Socket - $7.99
http://www.amazon.com/Blue-Sea-Systems-Volt-Socket/dp/B001U4ZZPK

DC Laptop Charger: (price may vary, must be matched to laptop model) - $11.99
http://smile.amazon.com/Dell-ADP-90ND-Auto-Air-Automobile-Airplane/dp/B009OOW0O2/ref=cm_cr_pr_sims_t

I would mount the battery centered on a piece of 1/2" plywood cut to the inside dimensions of the box using a couple nylon straps and footman loops: http://www.amazon.com/JR-Products-17384-Battery-Hardware/dp/B002UC4SSQ to make things nice and secure, I would run one strap along the length of the battery and one along the width. Carriage bolts and lock-nuts would be much more secure than screws to mount the footman loops.

Once the battery is mounted to the plywood, secure it to the box by drilling holes thru the bottom of the box and installing 1/4" carriage bolts up through the bottom with fender washers and lock-nuts on top inside the box.

The charge controller and 120V battery charger could be mounted to the top of the box the same way the battery was mounted in the bottom. To keep the chargers running cool, just open the top of the box whenever the system is charging. For a system that will be mounted in the van and charging full time, a computer fan could be wired in to provide cooling air.

The DC outlets can be mounted through the ends of the box and connected to the 6 circuit fuse block.

I did not include an inverter of any type in this design, since I don't advise using inverters with small battery banks unless absolutely necessary. You could easily add an inverter sized to fit your needs. As has already been mentioned, a pure sine-wave inverter is the best choice for sensitive electronic equipment.
_________________
Jay Brown
'85 Zetec Westfalia
Newmarket, NH

If you want others to be happy, practice compassion.
If you want to be happy, practice compassion.

thatvwbusguy · Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2014 2:33 am Post subject:

For people looking for a significantly more affordable, pre-assembled solar generator, the ArkPak looks like it could be a pretty good solution:

http://www.amazon.com/Ark-Co-ArkPak-Bundle/dp/B00H81AVQM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3O9N1RBRp4

The ArkPak doesn't offer all of the bells and whistles that the GoalZero has, but it can be set up with a 125Ah AGM battery and a folding 100W solar kit for $850.00

125Ah AGM Battery: http://www.amazon.com/Vmaxtanks-Vmaxslr125-rechargeable-Solar-Inverters/dp/B00ACNO2AO

100W Solar Kit: http://www.amazon.com/Renogy-100W-Mono-Starter-Kit/dp/B00BFCNFRM

The inverter built into the ArkPak is a modified sine-wave output, so it might not be so great with sensitive electronics.
_________________
Jay Brown
'85 Zetec Westfalia
Newmarket, NH

If you want others to be happy, practice compassion.
If you want to be happy, practice compassion.

4x4BNB · Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2014 4:41 am Post subject:

Always some great info here, too

https://handybobsolar.wordpress.com

matt94gt · Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2014 12:24 pm Post subject:

Wow thanks so much for all your advice.

I already have a pure sinewave inverter:
http://www.xantrex.com/power-products/power-inverters/prowatt-sw.aspx

Its the 900 watt model.

So your saying to try to just use small DC chargers for stuff like laptops etc vs an inverter?

I Imagine I could hook up the 12V Socket, USBs etc to that 6 Circuit Fuse Block? Thats the idea behind that correct? I would need at least 3 12V sockets, and 2 USB is that a problem?

Also could I just have my inverter on standby vs having it on permanently, is that an idea? Such as I can have it all wired up, incase I need to plug somthing in, and have the power turned off until I need it? Or maybe just get one of the small 12V power socket powered inverters and have it tucked away incase i need it? Id rather use the one I have and have it wired up just incase.

I did find this for charging my laptops, as I'm a Mac guy:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/GPK-CAR-CHARGER-FOR-APPLE-...0905080780

Thanks again so much,
Matt
_________________
72' Sunroof Bus - Kansas Beige
http://www.vw-mplate.com/mplate-21257.htm

Build thread:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7257521

dobryan · Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2014 12:52 pm Post subject:

MarkWard · Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2014 1:38 pm Post subject:

I had very bad luck with my Xantrex 1000 invertor/charger. Plus it was not a true sine wave invertor. I replaced it with two separate components. I have a small invertor that remains off. Go Power! GP-SW300-12 300-Watt Pure Sine Wave Inverter.

For charging, I added a Pro mariner permanent charger. It is hard wired to the van's 12 volt system as well as the 110 system. [/url]

matt94gt · Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2014 2:12 pm Post subject:

thatvwbusguy · Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2014 1:25 am Post subject:

You can definitely keep the inverter powered off until you need it. A set of properly sized Anderson Power Poles would make it quick and easy to connect and disconnect as needed.

You can add as many USB and 12V sockets to the battery as you would like.

The fuse block will be used to protect the USB and 12V outlets. Since you want to have a totally portable system, a fuse block with a negative bus will be easier to wire than the original link I provided. http://www.amazon.com/Blue-Sea-Systems-Blade-Block/dp/B000THQ0CQ

Your inverter will need separate circuit protection. The owners manual for the Xantrex SW 1000 recommends a 150A ANL fuse: http://www.amazon.com/Scoshe-EWFH-Single-Fuse-Holder/dp/B000KIR8M0
http://www.amazon.com/Link-ANL150-150-Amp-Fuse/dp/B000P0UBPO
_________________
Jay Brown
'85 Zetec Westfalia
Newmarket, NH

If you want others to be happy, practice compassion.
If you want to be happy, practice compassion.

HoustonPhotog · Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2014 6:44 am Post subject:

matt94gt · Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2014 11:33 am Post subject:

You guys are awesome thanks for all the help.

As per putting in a disconnect between the inverter and battery, is that necessary if the inverter has a power switch?

Once I get all my stuff together ill be sure to document the setup etc for others.
_________________
72' Sunroof Bus - Kansas Beige
http://www.vw-mplate.com/mplate-21257.htm

Build thread:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7257521


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