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Carb to intake manifold leak (Tutorial)
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67rustavenger
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:19 pm    Post subject: Carb to intake manifold leak (Tutorial) Reply with quote

So there have been many posts over the years where the OP swears that the carb to intake flange was completely flat. I thought so too until tonight.....
This was after a little filing on the manifold flange.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Then I applied bluing to the manifold flange (redneck style) with a Sharpie.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

I filed some more using the "draw file" method. Basically angling the file at a 45° angle to the piece that I am filing on. Please take note that I am doing this on my lap. Not with a vice. I can''t afford one at the moment Embarassed
So after draw filing for 20 minutes. I can see the path that I need to take to get the flange flat.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Draw filing method.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Getting closer to completely flat.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

I blued the flange once again.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

This is the end result
Checked with a feeler gauge for flatness.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I hope this is helpful to those that think their carb to manifold is good when it is not.

Sadly the before pic didn't load. But you get the idea. Hopefully.

Good Luck.
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andk5591
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:16 am    Post subject: Re: Carb to intake manifold leak (Tutorial) Reply with quote

That was nice...And a very common problem. Another option that I have used is to make a new gasket out of heavy gasket paper if its not real bad and I am not planning on removing the intake.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:51 am    Post subject: Re: Carb to intake manifold leak (Tutorial) Reply with quote

Very nice thanks, heater box flanges also need checked same way. A really nice high quality carb base gasket available here, proprietor had them made out of desperation because of ? You guessed it. Shitty aftermarket gaskets. He priced them reasonable, get several @

www.bughaus.com
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 6:03 am    Post subject: Re: Carb to intake manifold leak (Tutorial) Reply with quote

Doesn't the gasket accommodate for that minor of a variance?
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 6:34 am    Post subject: Re: Carb to intake manifold leak (Tutorial) Reply with quote

Sharp64 wrote:
Doesn't the gasket accommodate for that minor of a variance?


Depends on the gasket, the low quality crap out there doesn't always work. Take a look at the gasket I suggested, there's a pic up on the website, looks stout.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 7:13 am    Post subject: Re: Carb to intake manifold leak (Tutorial) Reply with quote

you think the manifold is not flat, wait till you check the carb base! the carbbases I have found to usually be more warped than the manifolds.

Use of extra fat gaskets can result in more warpage of the carb flange. use care, dont over tighten to seal a leak from a warped flange(s) as that can cause even more warpage.
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Last edited by bluebus86 on Tue Jul 11, 2017 7:50 am; edited 1 time in total
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Sharp64
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 7:22 am    Post subject: Re: Carb to intake manifold leak (Tutorial) Reply with quote

I guess I always just thought the gasket absorbed fuel/moisture and swelled to fill any slight unevenness. Based on those pics, it's what? .001? I'm not arguing, just surprised that this would cause any discernible issue. Learn something new I guess.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 9:57 am    Post subject: Re: Carb to intake manifold leak (Tutorial) Reply with quote

I agree that a gasket would probably seal it. But now there will be no guesswork.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 10:07 am    Post subject: Re: Carb to intake manifold leak (Tutorial) Reply with quote

Zundfolge1432 wrote:
Sharp64 wrote:
Doesn't the gasket accommodate for that minor of a variance?


Depends on the gasket, the low quality crap out there doesn't always work. Take a look at the gasket I suggested, there's a pic up on the website, looks stout.


Yes, some of the ones that come in cheap rebuild kits are really thin compared to "real" ones.

Sharp64 wrote:
I guess I always just thought the gasket absorbed fuel/moisture and swelled to fill any slight unevenness. Based on those pics, it's what? .001? I'm not arguing, just surprised that this would cause any discernible issue. Learn something new I guess.

I haven't seen it swell, at least not some huge amount, but they do deform to the shape of the carb. base so when you remove it, you see the pattern of ridges from the bottom of the carb.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 6:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Carb to intake manifold leak (Tutorial) Reply with quote

EverettB wrote:
Zundfolge1432 wrote:
Sharp64 wrote:
Doesn't the gasket accommodate for that minor of a variance?


Depends on the gasket, the low quality crap out there doesn't always work. Take a look at the gasket I suggested, there's a pic up on the website, looks stout.


Yes, some of the ones that come in cheap rebuild kits are really thin compared to "real" ones.

Sharp64 wrote:
I guess I always just thought the gasket absorbed fuel/moisture and swelled to fill any slight unevenness. Based on those pics, it's what? .001? I'm not arguing, just surprised that this would cause any discernible issue. Learn something new I guess.

I haven't seen it swell, at least not some huge amount, but they do deform to the shape of the carb. base so when you remove it, you see the pattern of ridges from the bottom of the carb.


Cool. Good info to know and one more vacuum leak to look for. Something I'll definitely look at from now on.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:04 am    Post subject: Re: Carb to intake manifold leak (Tutorial) Reply with quote

Once again - if not real bad, I have a roll of 1/16" gasket paper. Get a cheap set of hole punches and you can make them as needed. I have various thicknesses of gasket material and make a lot of my own gaskets if I don't have the correct one in stock.

https://www.harborfreight.com/9-piece-hollow-punch-set-3838.html
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 8:54 am    Post subject: Re: Carb to intake manifold leak (Tutorial) Reply with quote

andk5591 wrote:
Once again - if not real bad, I have a roll of 1/16" gasket paper. Get a cheap set of hole punches and you can make them as needed. I have various thicknesses of gasket material and make a lot of my own gaskets if I don't have the correct one in stock.

https://www.harborfreight.com/9-piece-hollow-punch-set-3838.html


If I ever do need to make a gasket, I typically trace first, then drill the holes out on my drill press. Third is that I actually do the cutting.

Right now I'm running homemade rubberized gasket (from O'Reilly) under the Weber carb and adapter on my 1988 Mazda truck, as back in 2011 when I rebuilt its engine and had vacuum leak, it would've taken about a week to obtain from California or New York (now I have a set of new as spare).
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Carb to intake manifold leak (Tutorial) Reply with quote

To all of the follow up posters. Thank you for the input.
I created this thread to show how with simple tools and methods you can get your carb intake flange flat for a good sealing surface.

My intent surely was not to debate the merits of carb gasket quality. Gasket quality has been covered on the samba many times.

I did check the lower carb flange last night and it's flat. So I'm good in that respect.

I did use an HF file Shocked It was what I had on hand. The correct choice of file should have been a "Mill Bastard" instead if the cross cut file I used. I would have had a better flange finish using the Mill Bastard.

Zundfolge1432 - I wish I would have posted this three weeks ago. Your suggestion to do the same on the exhaust flanges caused a lighting bolt to pass through my head. I installed a poor fitting muffler with an ill fitting flange on the #4 exhaust port. It fit like shit. Oh well Crying or Very sad
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Carb to intake manifold leak (Tutorial) Reply with quote

67rustavenger wrote:
To all of the follow up posters. Thank you for the input.
I created this thread to show how with simple tools and methods you can get your carb intake flange flat for a good sealing surface.

My intent surely was not to debate the merits of carb gasket quality. Gasket quality has been covered on the samba many times.

I did check the lower carb flange last night and it's flat. So I'm good in that respect.

I did use an HF file Shocked It was what I had on hand. The correct choice of file should have been a "Mill Bastard" instead if the cross cut file I used. I would have had a better flange finish using the Mill Bastard.

Zundfolge1432 - I wish I would have posted this three weeks ago. Your suggestion to do the same on the exhaust flanges caused a lighting bolt to pass through my head. I installed a poor fitting muffler with an ill fitting flange on the #4 exhaust port. It fit like shit. Oh well Crying or Very sad


Same technique my Dad taught me 40 years ago when hed repair the family Bug, smart guy.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 9:16 am    Post subject: Re: Carb to intake manifold leak (Tutorial) Reply with quote

67rustavenger wrote:
To all of the follow up posters. Thank you for the input.
I created this thread to show how with simple tools and methods you can get your carb intake flange flat for a good sealing surface.

My intent surely was not to debate the merits of carb gasket quality. Gasket quality has been covered on the samba many times.

I did check the lower carb flange last night and it's flat. So I'm good in that respect.

I did use an HF file Shocked It was what I had on hand. The correct choice of file should have been a "Mill Bastard" instead if the cross cut file I used. I would have had a better flange finish using the Mill Bastard.

Zundfolge1432 - I wish I would have posted this three weeks ago. Your suggestion to do the same on the exhaust flanges caused a lighting bolt to pass through my head. I installed a poor fitting muffler with an ill fitting flange on the #4 exhaust port. It fit like shit. Oh well Crying or Very sad


I'd like to take credit for that but actually wcfvw69 Bill reminded me of this couple of months ago and also said check heat riser flange too. Basically all the flanges could be warped now 40-50 years of hard use. Thanks Bill. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 1:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Carb to intake manifold leak (Tutorial) Reply with quote

The carb was test fit last night. I thought that was ok. Wrong! Laughing
I'll do the write up when I get off work this evening.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 5:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Carb to intake manifold leak (Tutorial) Reply with quote

So like I typed above. I test fit the carb last night after checking the flange was flat using a feeler gauge on edge from the front to back along the line of the studs. It looked ok.
So I placed the carb on the intake flange without a gasket and found the left and right sides were terribly warped. No wonder the car came with an H30/31 on the engine.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

I removed the throttle are and the accel pump so the flange would sit flat.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

I got out my piece of glass and sand paper to sand the carb base flat again.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Applied the redneck bluing again to track my progress.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

I first sanded with 80grt. until the bluing was gone and the carb base was flat.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

This is how much material had to be sanded off to get the base flat.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

I applied the bluing again and changed to 150grt. paper. After 8 swipes on the sand paper. This is the result.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

This is the final fit after sanding. Much better. Oh and no gasket would have helped this carb seal at the intake flange.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


This took all of half an hour to 45 minutes to complete. For me the end result is satisfying. And the best part was the cost to do this $0.00.

Good Luck.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 7:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Carb to intake manifold leak (Tutorial) Reply with quote

Nice write up. Is there anyway to flatten these things out a little easier? I've been using a flat sanding pad and running the flange against it.

Is there a flange on these cars that doesn't get warped? I now check all of mine when working on my engines.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 10:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Carb to intake manifold leak (Tutorial) Reply with quote

Zundfolge1432 wrote:
67rustavenger wrote:
To all of the follow up posters. Thank you for the input.
I created this thread to show how with simple tools and methods you can get your carb intake flange flat for a good sealing surface.

My intent surely was not to debate the merits of carb gasket quality. Gasket quality has been covered on the samba many times.

I did check the lower carb flange last night and it's flat. So I'm good in that respect.

I did use an HF file Shocked It was what I had on hand. The correct choice of file should have been a "Mill Bastard" instead if the cross cut file I used. I would have had a better flange finish using the Mill Bastard.

Zundfolge1432 - I wish I would have posted this three weeks ago. Your suggestion to do the same on the exhaust flanges caused a lighting bolt to pass through my head. I installed a poor fitting muffler with an ill fitting flange on the #4 exhaust port. It fit like shit. Oh well Crying or Very sad


I'd like to take credit for that but actually wcfvw69 Bill reminded me of this couple of months ago and also said check heat riser flange too. Basically all the flanges could be warped now 40-50 years of hard use. Thanks Bill. Very Happy


OP, nice work and pictures of how you accomplished this. These are the fine details that are often overlooked when fitting carbs or exhausts. I was chasing a self inflicted exhaust leak on an engine. I finally pressured the exhaust system with a clean wet/dry vac. I sprayed all the connections with soapy water. The exhaust was new and had been installed w/all new exhaust gaskets. EVERY joint looked like a bubble making machine! Shocked As soon as I saw that, I was reminded of my Dad telling me years ago to make sure the flanges are flat.
The muffler was removed as were the heater boxes. The heater box flanges and intake manifold flanges were seriously warped and required lots of time to flatten them again w/a big file. After bolting it all back together, the joints passed the pressured soapy water test and the engine was quiet. Wink
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 5:40 am    Post subject: Re: Carb to intake manifold leak (Tutorial) Reply with quote

kawfee wrote:
Nice write up. Is there anyway to flatten these things out a little easier? I've been using a flat sanding pad and running the flange against it.

Sure there are easier and less labor intensive methods to get the flanges true.
The whole point of the methods that I applied was to demonstrate that this can accomplished with hand tools. I'd like to have a belt sander(hint) for this work. But I don't have the funds or the space to keep one.

These cars are old. After many years of careless hacks working on them the flanges get warped and need attention.
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