No 1:25 rockers for me and "if it ain't broke..."

[Igeo]

I wanted to order a set of 1:25 ratio rockers for my '87, but the kit through Marco is currently not available. I believe there are other options for this modification, but I'm leary of installing it with the engine in the van because it sounds like to get the geometry right, it takes some careful fitment that sounds like hard work while laying on the ground.

So I've decided to go ahead and just adjust what I have for now since I have no idea who worked on this van before me. I don't have any unusual valve train noise save for a loud lifter that clatters if the van sits. Normal lifter bleed down probably that goes away in a few minutes.

I poked around on the forum here and found the following post from 2010 that suggests using only 1/2 turn pre-load. Wondering if anybody here with some experience with these engines can comment? Or should I just go 1.5 turns and call it a day?


"Adjusting valves on a Vanagon is pretty simple if you do as wildthing suggests and just use your fingers to tighten the adjuster screw until it just touches the valve stem and you just start feeling resistance. The only problem I can see is by following the 1.5 to 2 turns instructions. That is way too tight! The Bentley manual is wrong and over the years improper valve adjustment is one of the things that can cause a bunch of problems including burnt valves, low compression, low manifold pressure, low power, oscillating idle, etc. My good friend Bob Donalds from Boston Engine and I had many hours of talks about proper valve adjustment over the years. He would always send out his rebuilt engines with a gap between the valve adjuster and valve stem. He swore by this as a way to ensure that the lifters pumped up properly and also allowed the valves to fully close. I usually adjust my valves to zero lash (in other words just touching). Usually they are fine there and don't make noise. If you feel like you have to adjust the valves in tighter I would give them half a turn at the most. Bob fought with the Bentley publishers for years to try to get their two turns changed. He finally got a note in the latest version of the Bentley about the valve adjustment problems that some Vanagon owners were having but they still wouldn't change the adjustment spec."
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1987 Westfalia 2.1 WBX Manual

[shagginwagon83]

1.5 turns worked for me. Not 2.
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"Jo Ann" - '83.5 Westfalia EJ22e w/Peloquin
Instagram: @joannthevan

[mikemtnbike]

About 1 turn for me. 1/2 a turn left me with clatter that wouldn't go away as one would expect lifter noise to, that can't be good.

I also found that it was MUCH easier to adjust the valves when the engine was warm, not cold. This means letting engine getting hot and cool down to comfortable to touch, but not cold. The lifters were so soft after sitting for about 5 weeks (engine taken out of van for waterjacket replacement, general overhaul of everything else janky in the engine bay) that I couldn't even feel the adjuster contact when turning in by hand. I did this about 2.5 years ago and have left alone since.
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1991 Vanagon GL 2.1 AT Westfauxlia. "Frankie" Totaled https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=764510&highlight=carnage
1995 Eurovan Camper "Marzivan"
2020 GTI SE manual

[sanchius]

In the thread "CB adjsuters w/1.25 rockers - no lash? What, now?", tencentlife wrote:
There is a sticky thread in the Performance/Engine Building forum here about valve geometry. If you want to indulge in hours of reading and become totally confused I highly recommend it... ...Or take the easy route and just follow my advice.

I'm not qualified to add anything meaningful to this discussion other than to say I'm waiting for tencentlife to weight in with his thoughts.

I'm also interested in his thoughts on Marco's 1.25 rockers since I have a set sitting on the shelf waiting for me to gather the gumption to install.
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[borninabus]

i think what the book is trying to say is two twists of the screwdriver after contact. about 3/4 of a full rotation, not two full turns. obviously you want as little preload on the lifter as possible without undue valve noise or bleed-off which will fall somewhere between 3/4 and 1.5 turns. every engine is different and will require more preload as the miles stack up. more than 1.5 turns is too much and risks holding a valve open, which is bad.
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88 Van WBX, A/T - 13 JSW TDI 6M/T - 2012 Touareg TDI Sport

[hdenter]

Two thoughts, one is that if there is no "unusual" valve noise other than the one lifter that bleads down over time, why would you want to "adjust" them? Second, it is no more difficult from a physical point of view to adjust your valves or change your rockers. Either way, you will be laying on the ground and reaching up a short amount. It's not difficult at all.

Good luck!

Hans
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'79 triple white convertible bug
'84 sunroof vanagon
'85 weekender

[Igeo]

[T3 Pilot]

Read this link a couple, 2-3 times and see if the operating principles and adjustment practices of VW hydraulic valve adjusters doesn’t become a bit clearer.

https://itinerant-air-cooled.com//viewtopic.php?t=11408
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1988 Vanagon

The most important part in every vehicle is the nut behind the wheel......

[DanHoug]

i recently setup shimmed rockers for a CB Perf 1.25:1 set... did it on the bench which really is the place to do it. lots of fiddly shim swapping, measuring, bolting, etc.

unless you have a good reason to be doing the rockers, like the shaft broke, setting up a new head, or another reason, the performance increase just isn't worth the hassle of doing it on the van. when the head is off, sure, it's a good mod, but to do it right you need good sight lines to see both arm geometry and valve stem contact position.

i guess a spring arrangement COULD be done on the van, but a shimmed shaft has many advantages if you're willing to fiddle for it.
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-dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.

'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd

Past projects can be found at--
www.thefixitworkshop.com

[Igeo]

[hdenter]

I can appreciate that setting up rockers is a bit more difficult than adjusting preload on lifters. Would it be easier to do 1.25s on a bench, sure. But, to pull a motor to do them is a little much. There's enough room down there to figure it out. I sure wouldn't put off doing them because I was waiting for a bigger problem that necessitated pulling the engine. Unless you have some other issues with the engine or you just feel it's time to refresh the motor with rod bearings and head gaskets, get'er done.

Hans
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'79 triple white convertible bug
'84 sunroof vanagon
'85 weekender

[Igeo]

I wasn't considering pulling the motor to install 1:25 rockers. Marco's kit that is currently unavailable would be my choice if I were to make the mod on an older engine like mine. It sounds like an easy bit of work with the engine in place. If I were to rebuild, then I'd likely go with the swiivel adjusters and shimmed rocker shaft blocks and could more comfortably fuss with getting the side play right etc. with the engine on a stand.
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1987 Westfalia 2.1 WBX Manual

[borninabus]

[Steve Arndt]

[Igeo]

So I'll do the valve adjustment tomorrow if for no other reason that it I can fix the leaky valve covers.

The thought ocuured to me that instead of bothering with rotating the crank pully to get each piston at TDC, why not use the method I've done for years on my old solid lifter Y-Block Ford? The old EOIC (exhaust-open-intake-closed) method.

I'd jack one rear corner up which gives me more room, then with the trans in 4th gear, I can turn the wheel that is off the ground to turn the engine. I could use a remote switch but this method would give better control, and is easier on the starter.

So when the engine is turning, you can observe the exhaust valve just starting to open on a cylinder. At that point, one can be sure the lifter for the intake valve on that cylinder is on the base of the cam lobe and can be adjusted. Then you turn the engine by rotating the wheel and observe the intake valve untill it is just about to close. Then you know the exhaust valve for that cylinder can be adjusted.

Seems easier and maybe a more accurate way of doing it. I guess I might add an obvious safety tip, specifically that if you have a locking differential you'd want both wheels off the ground.
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1987 Westfalia 2.1 WBX Manual

[jberger]

[MarkWard]

At TDC for cylinder 1, you should be able to adjust 4 valves. Intake and exhaust on cylinder 1, intake on cylinder 2 and exhaust on cylinder 4.

At TDC for cylinder 3, you should be able to adjust intake and exhaust cylinder 3, intake cylinder 4 and exhaust cylinder 2.

I worked for VW prior to hydraulic lifters. Valve adjustments where just part of general maintenance. In the 70s clearance was set on a cold engine to .006". Prior VW spec was .004". Interval was 6000 miles between valve adjustments. I think VW increased the spec to help those out that could not adjust there valves as often.

In use valves would tighten, which was bad. Valves would loosen which was not as bad, but noisy.

As far as hydraulic lifters go, it would make sense to preload the lifter enough during adjustment, that if the relative installed height was shrinking from the valve seating or growing because of wear, that the lifter would have the room in both directions to take up the change.

I personally have used 1.5 turns past zero lash for years.

[Phaedrus]

Yeah... You're overthinking it. Super easy ordeal. You can use the dizzy rotor to find out where you are at TDC, adjust the appropriate valves. 1.5 turns from 0 should work just fine.
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1986 WBX (Tin Top Camper)

[Igeo]

So I ran the engine for 5 minutes, the did the valves using the EOIC method with the wheel off the ground next to that bank of cylinders. Rotating the wheel in 4th gear was pretty easy for tuning the engine. Just turn until you see the exhaust valve just start to open or the intake valve just start to close and then do the other valve on that cylinder. Finding zero lash was not a problem.

Afterwards, rotating the wheel through 4 compression strokes told me the compression is pretty even.

Honestly the hardsest part was the left bank where it was difficult to get a stubby screwdiver to turn the adjustment screw in the requisite 1.5 turns. The exhaust piping interferes, at least if did for me, so I used an offset screwdriver. This was my grandpa's tool- I'll bet it's 80 years old.

Anyway, the job went well- thanks guys.

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1987 Westfalia 2.1 WBX Manual

[MarkWard]

So after all that, how was the original adjustment?