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VW_Jimbo 
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Joined: May 22, 2016
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Location: Huntington Beach, CA
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 Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2023 3:38 pm Post subject: Re: Jimmy V’s 54 Oval Project |
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It is that time of year again! Between family, parties, shopping and decorating, there is close to zero free time. But I did manage to pull out 2 36hp cases, yesterday! I only had a couple of hours, to find, dig out, replace all that was “pulled out”, clean and clean up.
The 2 cases pulled are both later than 54. The one I cleaned up is #1905975. Looks to be a May 57 number. The other one is #2651859. That one looks to be an October 58 number. So, I set up and cleaned the earlier case. Had about 1/4” of crud on the sides and bottom. Used some Simple Green, a brass brush and a lot of elbow grease, on 80% of the case.
After 4 hours of scrubbing, I got to here.
And it looks like I will need to scrub it some more!
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Jimbo
There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!
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| Basically, a whole bunch of fuckery to achieve a look. |
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esde
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Joined: October 20, 2007
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Location: central rust belt
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| Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2023 3:53 pm Post subject: Re: Jimmy V’s 54 Oval Project |
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Before you clean further, check the cam bearing surfaces. As they aren't replaceable, you don't want to use a case if it's excessively worn there..
Just my .02, as I have already surgically cleaned a case and then found it was NFG. It was super frustrating.
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VW_Jimbo
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Joined: May 22, 2016
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Location: Huntington Beach, CA
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| Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2023 4:00 pm Post subject: Re: Jimmy V’s 54 Oval Project |
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| esde wrote: |
Before you clean further, check the cam bearing surfaces. As they aren't replaceable, you don't want to use a case if it's excessively worn there..
Just my .02, as I have already surgically cleaned a case and then found it was NFG. It was super frustrating. |
Thanks! Problem was, everything was getting dirty from just moving the case out of its spot. Figured that I would clean it and then figure out if it is any good!
I think I will go get the pressure washer from the shop, bring it to the house and power wash the inside of both cases. Then measure what I have. Because I do not know. Pick up each one for 50 bucks while purchasing other parts from people.
I wonder if you could bore those out and find bearings for them?.?
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Jimbo
There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!
| TDCTDI wrote: |
| Basically, a whole bunch of fuckery to achieve a look. |
| 67rustavenger wrote: |
| GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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esde
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Joined: October 20, 2007
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Location: central rust belt
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| Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2023 4:30 pm Post subject: Re: Jimmy V’s 54 Oval Project |
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Gotcha.
Lately my cleaning regiment is:
-dunk in the parts washer to get the major grease off.
after this I can give them a pretty thorough inspection
-Power washer using hot water (washing machine hookup) this gets it really clean.
- then I load the blast cabinet with walnut shells and get them really clean. I used to use Armex soda but the walnut shells give a better finish. This is a case after walnut shells:
As for cam bearings, it can be done, but not cost effectively yet. Theres a guy in Europe that's done it, and I think Mr Okrasa has also, but really just to save special cases that are correct for the car. It sounds like it's all custom one off work, so $$$
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VW_Jimbo
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Joined: May 22, 2016
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Location: Huntington Beach, CA
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| Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2023 9:46 am Post subject: Re: Jimmy V’s 54 Oval Project |
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That case is pretty. So soft looking!
I will need to finish cleaning the case today and then take a good look over all of it. If those cam journals are out….might have to get creative! That’s the part I enjoy the most from restoring these cars. That being the stretching of the grey matter! Let’s see what happens today!
Did you have to plug all of the oil gallows up for the blasting? If so, what did you use? Just tapered plugs or? Can not get my mind wrapped around it. I would be scared of some of the media hanging out after everything was all clean and then dislodging after start up. That would suck! But maybe the walnut shell are not that harsh. Never used them before. Educate me some if you do not mind.
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Jimbo
There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!
| TDCTDI wrote: |
| Basically, a whole bunch of fuckery to achieve a look. |
| 67rustavenger wrote: |
| GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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esde
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Location: central rust belt
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| Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2023 10:42 am Post subject: Re: Jimmy V’s 54 Oval Project |
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There are so many ways to do this, I just found this is the best I can do with what I have available to me. I do not remove the case plugs before blasting, this pretty much eliminates the chances of shell or grit getting lodged inside the oil passages. The walnut shell hardness works well with the surface hardness of the magnesium. It doesn't noticeably change the texture of the case like glass or beads do, but it does give it a soft peened finish. The case I pictured got marinated in some WD40 afterwards and it still looks the same 2 years later. And I touch it up every once in a while, as I believe the light oil keeps the magnesium from oxidizing and looking white.
After the blasting I pull all the case plugs, tap the openings and modify for full flow oiling. I go through all the oil gallies with rifle bore brushes and thinner, til the thinner runs clean, sometimes getting the power washer back out to flush them under pressure. By the time I actually seal an engine case it's often been cleaned 5-6 times.
Merry Xmas! SD
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VW_Jimbo
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Joined: May 22, 2016
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| Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2023 12:18 am Post subject: Re: Jimmy V’s 54 Oval Project |
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Thank you Seth! Appreciate the education! Guess I need some Walnut shells after I figure out the condition of the cam journals.
Thanks brother!
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Jimbo
There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!
| TDCTDI wrote: |
| Basically, a whole bunch of fuckery to achieve a look. |
| 67rustavenger wrote: |
| GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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Rome
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| Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2023 7:09 am Post subject: Re: Jimmy V’s 54 Oval Project |
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| Quote: |
| As for cam bearings, it can be done, but not cost effectively yet. |
2 thoughts:
1. Does the guy who specialises in the Bonneville speed race class using VW 36 hp engine cases do such work? He's in the USA- Steve (?) Bruch?
2. What about sources who work on Porsche 356 cases- the early ones from the early '50's when Porsche still used a 2-piece case design such as our 36 hp? The Porsche owners certainly are willing to work with much more $ for their rare and costly cars/engines, but just having a careful machinist who can do this work at all is a huge benefit. If we're used to paying $100 for a main bearing line bore, would $500 be understandable for a cam bearing line bore? I have no idea if that is a realistic price, but as time progresses and also the availability of saveable 36 hp cases declines, such prices might become tolerable for VWs. |
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Busstom
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| Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2023 7:45 am Post subject: Re: Jimmy V’s 54 Oval Project |
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| Quote: |
| ...would $500 be understandable for a cam bearing line bore? ....such prices might become tolerable for VWs. |
It should be, considering the prices people are asking for these cars these days.
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esde
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Joined: October 20, 2007
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Location: central rust belt
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| Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2023 8:14 am Post subject: Re: Jimmy V’s 54 Oval Project |
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| Rome wrote: |
| Quote: |
| As for cam bearings, it can be done, but not cost effectively yet. |
2 thoughts:
1. Does the guy who specialises in the Bonneville speed race class using VW 36 hp engine cases do such work? He's in the USA- Steve (?) Bruch?
2. What about sources who work on Porsche 356 cases- the early ones from the early '50's when Porsche still used a 2-piece case design such as our 36 hp? The Porsche owners certainly are willing to work with much more $ for their rare and costly cars/engines, but just having a careful machinist who can do this work at all is a huge benefit. If we're used to paying $100 for a main bearing line bore, would $500 be understandable for a cam bearing line bore? I have no idea if that is a realistic price, but as time progresses and also the availability of saveable 36 hp cases declines, such prices might become tolerable for VWs. |
I actually dug through many old threads looking for info on this a while back. There are several hurdles, the largest being no off the shelf cam bearings, and no ready made boring bar. And there is nowhere precise to locate the ends of the bar. I've made larger boring bars for hydraulic cylinder fittings, and toyed with the idea of making this tool. I had the idea that if you made cams with oversize journals, you could just line bore the case to fit the cam, and at least not worry about the cam bearings. (not a huge deal as long as you run some oil filtration)
I'm sure it's possible, and probably will be done when someone sees enough return on investment. But for a long time people were giving 36hp. engines away for free, not restoring them..
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mdege
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EVfun
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| Posted: Mon Dec 25, 2023 11:05 am Post subject: Re: Jimmy V’s 54 Oval Project |
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| esde wrote: |
| As for cam bearings, it can be done, but not cost effectively yet. Theres a guy in Europe that's done it, and I think Mr Okrasa has also, but really just to save special cases that are correct for the car. It sounds like it's all custom one off work, so $$$ |
How about going the other direction? Would it be possible to machine the case to accept a cam with journals oversized by about 1/4 mm? That might be practical to do either by plating buildup of an existing cam or with a new cam blank.
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esde
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| Posted: Mon Dec 25, 2023 1:05 pm Post subject: Re: Jimmy V’s 54 Oval Project |
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| EVfun wrote: |
| esde wrote: |
| As for cam bearings, it can be done, but not cost effectively yet. Theres a guy in Europe that's done it, and I think Mr Okrasa has also, but really just to save special cases that are correct for the car. It sounds like it's all custom one off work, so $$$ |
How about going the other direction? Would it be possible to machine the case to accept a cam with journals oversized by about 1/4 mm? That might be practical to do either by plating buildup of an existing cam or with a new cam blank. |
That's what I was proposing, farther down in the same post:
| esde wrote: |
I had the idea that if you made cams with oversize journals, you could just line bore the case to fit the cam, and at least not worry about the cam bearings. (not a huge deal as long as you run some oil filtration)
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And I spoke w Webcam about it briefly. They could absolutely hardweld the cam journals, then grind them to your spec. But again, it would involve getting the right machine or boring bar to do the cam saddles
Jimbo, sorry to slightly derail your thread, but it's still sort of on topic 
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modok wrote:
Bent cranks are silent but gather no moss. I mean, ah, something like that.
Last edited by esde on Mon Dec 25, 2023 7:41 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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VW_Jimbo
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Joined: May 22, 2016
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Location: Huntington Beach, CA
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| Posted: Mon Dec 25, 2023 7:38 pm Post subject: Re: Jimmy V’s 54 Oval Project |
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| esde wrote: |
| Jimbo, sorry to slightly derail your thread, but it's still sort of on topic |
No worries! It is all good with great intentions! It is an issue on the horizon with no visible solution.
Let’s see what my case looks like. That is the starting point. No carts in front of any horses!
_________________
Jimbo
There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!
| TDCTDI wrote: |
| Basically, a whole bunch of fuckery to achieve a look. |
| 67rustavenger wrote: |
| GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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VW_Jimbo
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Joined: May 22, 2016
Posts: 9974
Location: Huntington Beach, CA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2024 11:06 am Post subject: Re: Jimmy V’s 54 Oval Project |
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| EVfun wrote: |
| esde wrote: |
| As for cam bearings, it can be done, but not cost effectively yet. Theres a guy in Europe that's done it, and I think Mr Okrasa has also, but really just to save special cases that are correct for the car. It sounds like it's all custom one off work, so $$$ |
How about going the other direction? Would it be possible to machine the case to accept a cam with journals oversized by about 1/4 mm? That might be practical to do either by plating buildup of an existing cam or with a new cam blank. |
Maybe. You got me thinking! My first thought is…..if this is the path of least resistance, why has no one produced a set of oversized cams? Seems like a profitable avenue for a cam company.
Back when I wrenched, an old tractor engine was dropped off for rebuilding. (Lots of dairy land in Chino, CA, back then!) Anyways, the engine started to throw a rod. The crank was fucked up! Sent it out to Graves Automotive, and 3 weeks later the remanufactured crankshaft came back. They blast welded the journals, hardened them and machined them! I never even knew that was possible until that moment! However, my excited was dwarfed by the invoice!
_________________
Jimbo
There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!
| TDCTDI wrote: |
| Basically, a whole bunch of fuckery to achieve a look. |
| 67rustavenger wrote: |
| GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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VW_Jimbo
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Joined: May 22, 2016
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Location: Huntington Beach, CA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2024 4:05 pm Post subject: Re: Jimmy V’s 54 Oval Project |
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So, I have gotten in a few minutes, here and there, to start the process of cam bearing possibilities, over the last week. Lots of family events going on, as well as the turning over of the 1st!
So, the case has been on and off of the work bench, slowly getting through the cleanings, measuring and the rest of the running around needed! Pulled all the head studs, too!
I then bolted it all together! Took me about an hour to find the bag o bolts! I really need a better filing system. Next time!
The cam bore!
I got caught in putting the horse before the cart, again! It would be nice for a change to not go through a shit load of stuff to only find out, DOWN THE ROAD, that something is either needed or not needed. The later being the case (pun)!
So, I stuck my telescoping bore checking tool into the torqued up, clean case to see what I could see! What I found was a 5/10000th of an inch difference, between the middle and the 2 end bearings. Thinking that I might not be boring this case. I really want to, but I can not justify it. I purchased all of the materials to build a fixture to bore the cam tunnel out for modified stock 1600 bearings. But I cannot justify setting up a good standard case for boring, just because. So, I do have another case and will start another thread on that, down the road.
My measurements were: #1 bearing bore, 0.9460
#2 bearing bore, 0.9465
#3 bearing bore, 0.9460
I did find a problem with the camshafts. I have 1 of them with really bad wear. The other one with minor wear. But both intake lobes were shot. One of them was really deep. The kicker is, both cams look the same! Why?
After that I stripped the better crankshaft of its rods.
Like that crank shaft holder? Just weld a gland nut onto the mount! that way it can rotate if you need it to!
And all of the parts awaiting proper work! Joe Ruiz or DPR will be getting this pile. Have not gotten that far!
One more oddity! I almost forgot about it. When I stripped the rods off of the crank, I also was removing the bearings from the rods. They were all standard, and all looked the same. But one of them had an Elephant on the inside! Check it out! Really cool!
The other 7 looked like this. Cool stuff!
And the modified 1600 standard cam bearing. Start to finish.
Got it!
And for those that want to know how far I got on the cam boring. I managed to sketch out a rough drawing of what I was thinking of. I indexed the jig off of the case. In the front, at the 2 rear main bearing bolts and the lower oil pump bolts. At the rear, I utilized the 4 bellhousing points. The 2 bolts and 2 studs. I decided, since it would be a one off unit, to utilize a set of 1/2" inner diameter bronze bushings, installed into the 14" plate steel of the case mount at the front and the rear. I mounted the rear at 1 1/2 inches off of the case utilizing square tubing, but bolted to the 1/4' bottom plate, for ease of install and removal. The 1/2" bronze bushings would be centered on the cam shaft bore, by means of adjusting the four mounting bolts at the front and the back. The 1/2" steel bar would run in the bronze bushings al of the time, holding 3 cutters with rounded faces, each 120 degrees away from the other one. Seems like it would work, but I will not be fabbing it up anytime soon. But I would love any and all feed back on this drawing of the tooling. Maybe in the future, I will get to it!
Good luck to the next custodian of that torch!
Until next time!
_________________
Jimbo
There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!
| TDCTDI wrote: |
| Basically, a whole bunch of fuckery to achieve a look. |
| 67rustavenger wrote: |
| GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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matthew henricks
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VW_Jimbo
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| Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2024 10:27 pm Post subject: Re: Jimmy V’s 54 Oval Project |
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| matthew henricks wrote: |
| Jimbo. Any progress or are we both ignoring our projects? |
Nope. Just you. I have just been disassembling transmissions, trying to gather enough good parts to assemble one transmission. This last one I picked up has been the best. Looks like it broke a shift fork and the owner dropped it! Trying to decide if I just reassemble this one and move on, or drive up to MCM to have Scott go through one of them with me.
I am also building a single port engine for the 70, out of a case I salvaged. I align bored t to 60! Found a few sets of bearings and bought both, because I know this will get to be more common as these cars continue to age. I assembled the single port short block this weekend. Everything is good to go. So, I will assemble that up 100% this upcoming weekend. Then I will need to rebuild a set of single port heads I have! It’s a good set. Valve guide are slightly worn, so I have new guides coming this week! Got new guides and valves for the 36hp as well!
I just need more time off! But the schedule is overflowing. I am setting appointments for 6pm, as a start time. With a window of 3 hours! Wish me luck!
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Jimbo
There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!
| TDCTDI wrote: |
| Basically, a whole bunch of fuckery to achieve a look. |
| 67rustavenger wrote: |
| GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
Last edited by VW_Jimbo on Sun Feb 11, 2024 9:22 am; edited 1 time in total |
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esde
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| Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2024 6:42 am Post subject: Re: Jimmy V’s 54 Oval Project |
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| VW_Jimbo wrote: |
| matthew henricks wrote: |
| Jimbo. Any progress or are we both ignoring our projects? |
Nope. Just you. I have just been disassembling transmissions, trying to gather enough good parts to assemble one transmission. This last one I picked up has been the best. Looks like it broke a shift fork and the owner dropped it! Trying to decide if I just reassemble this one and move on, or drive up to MCM to have Scott go through one of them with me.
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If you found a good one that was retired because of a bad shift fork, by all means rebuild those parts back into that case. I saves so much work, as you don't have to set the ring and pinion up from scratch..
I'm 100% sure you could tackle it on your own.
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matthew henricks
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