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Coilover Springs/Towing a trailer engine wear.
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jacobcallaghan
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2019 9:22 pm    Post subject: Coilover Springs/Towing a trailer engine wear. Reply with quote

Hello,

First off i would love to give a huge shout to Jeff at GemVW. So far the engine has been amazing. He built me a stock 1600 and it cruises nicely. So far have gone 5k miles no worries

Second. I just purchased a motorcycle today. A 1980 honda xl500s. It weighs about 300 Pound. I plan to tow it with a small harbor freight trailer. This leads me to two questions.

My bus is an early 1970 sundial hightop conversion. It has a little bit of but sag and with the added weight of the trailer i thought it might be nice to add coilover springs. Im confused on whether this is a good idea. I have read through some threads and it seems people have mixed results. Will it be to much wear on my mounting points? I would like to have my but sag fixed!

Second question is about engine and towing. I expect my trailer set to be around 500 pounds. Will this tax my engine heavily and wear my bus substantially over time? I baby the bus and drive quite slow not working the engine too hard. I plan to do the same with the trailer.

Thanks for the help!
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vwwestyman
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2019 5:25 am    Post subject: Re: Coilover Springs/Towing a trailer engine wear. Reply with quote

The proper way to fix your sag is not coilover springs (I cannot really comment on whether they will be good to use in general or not) but to readjust your rear torsion bars. Get a set of fresh bushings to go along with it.

I'd tow the trailer and not worry about it. It might cause a little more wear. (Though probably not really a ton over the life of the motor, pushing a high top brick down the road will be the biggest cause of wear!) But so what? Does it increase the fun of all those miles? Then it is probably worth it! I say what's the point of owning these things if we can't have fun driving them?
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2019 7:08 am    Post subject: Re: Coilover Springs/Towing a trailer engine wear. Reply with quote

jacobcallaghan wrote:
I baby the bus and drive quite slow not working the engine too hard.

You may be doing your bus more harm than good treating it like that, aircooled engines need RPM's for cooling, and working it hard cleans out harmful deposits in the cylinders and exhaust system, the oil should also reach at least 180 degrees on every drive to boil off corrosive moisture in the oil (200+ is even better). As Dave says don't be afraid to get the most out of it and have some fun, it'll live longer and not die from atrophy.

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Also as mentioned load the front seats with ~250 lbs and see how the bus sits, buses sit ass low when empty, when loaded correctly they level out and drive properly, get the rear too high and it may get squirelly on the highway. Your trailer doesn't sound like too much for it, but fresh bushings and reindexed torsion bars would be time well spent.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2019 7:29 am    Post subject: Re: Coilover Springs/Towing a trailer engine wear. Reply with quote

You can roughly estimate the increased engine wear by the drop in gas mileage. I guess it will be in the 10-20% range at most, not worth worrying about and easily worth the Zen
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2019 8:14 am    Post subject: Re: Coilover Springs/Towing a trailer engine wear. Reply with quote

There is nothing wrong with the coil overs, I prefer that ride over altering the spring plate position ( and the fore mentioned squirrely-ness ). If you over load the inside of the Bus with coil-overs on you could rip the upper shock mount, otherwise no issues. You can tow a 500 lb load safely, its already slow so you won't notice much. Get a tach and make all RPM decisions based on that information. I keep it at 3300 as much as possible, with occasional "rap ups" to 3800-4000 when accelerating.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2019 9:30 am    Post subject: Re: Coilover Springs/Towing a trailer engine wear. Reply with quote

I ran coilovers for a while then re-indexed the torsion bars when I switched to Koni's.

Didn't notice a big improvement doing it "the right way", the coilovers worked fine, but it was nice to check and replace the bushings while it was apart.

Incidentally, they are now gathering dust so PM me if you want some lightly used ones for cheap.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2019 11:49 am    Post subject: Re: Coilover Springs/Towing a trailer engine wear. Reply with quote

considering the number of folks here who get the torn-sheet-metal-where-the-top-rear-shock-mounts syndrome, I would be hesitant to rely on coil overs for ride control. That syndrome is a real PITA to repair.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2019 4:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Coilover Springs/Towing a trailer engine wear. Reply with quote

SGKent wrote:
considering the number of folks here who get the torn-sheet-metal-where-the-top-rear-shock-mounts syndrome, I would be hesitant to rely on coil overs for ride control. That syndrome is a real PITA to repair.
I have only heard of one person who actually tore a shock mount with coil overs and that was Fusername. He admitted also to some heavy off road bus bashing. The most quoted picture is actually from a shock with insufficient travel, not from too much weight on a coil over. Iíve run coil overs until they crapped out on my Ď71 and am going to air shocks next. Rottenkid runs air shocks and so does RSBadura. I pack around lots of weight in my bus and have run coil overs since about 2002. Your mileage may vary.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2019 4:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Coilover Springs/Towing a trailer engine wear. Reply with quote

TomWesty wrote:
SGKent wrote:
considering the number of folks here who get the torn-sheet-metal-where-the-top-rear-shock-mounts syndrome, I would be hesitant to rely on coil overs for ride control. That syndrome is a real PITA to repair.
I have only heard of one person who actually tore a shock mount with coil overs and that was Fusername. He admitted also to some heavy off road bus bashing. The most quoted picture is actually from a shock with insufficient travel, not from too much weight on a coil over. Iíve run coil overs until they crapped out on my Ď71 and am going to air shocks next. Rottenkid runs air shocks and so does RSBadura. I pack around lots of weight in my bus and have run coil overs since about 2002. Your mileage may vary.


There are actually about a dozen people here it has happened to in the last 10 years. The upper shock mount is not really that secure for anything but a shock. VW dealt with the issue by using different diameter torsion bars.
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"There are no great men, there are only great challenges that ordinary men are forced by circumstances to meet." - Adm William F. Halsey Jr

Caveat: I am not telling you what to, or what not to do. When a suggestion is offered, it is wishing you the best, and is based on my experiences as a mechanic, automotive machinist, and from racing in the era your bus came to life. My only goal is to share what has been learned on my path. Smile

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TomWesty
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2019 5:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Coilover Springs/Towing a trailer engine wear. Reply with quote

SGKent wrote:
TomWesty wrote:
SGKent wrote:
considering the number of folks here who get the torn-sheet-metal-where-the-top-rear-shock-mounts syndrome, I would be hesitant to rely on coil overs for ride control. That syndrome is a real PITA to repair.
I have only heard of one person who actually tore a shock mount with coil overs and that was Fusername. He admitted also to some heavy off road bus bashing. The most quoted picture is actually from a shock with insufficient travel, not from too much weight on a coil over. Iíve run coil overs until they crapped out on my Ď71 and am going to air shocks next. Rottenkid runs air shocks and so does RSBadura. I pack around lots of weight in my bus and have run coil overs since about 2002. Your mileage may vary.


There are actually about a dozen people here it has happened to in the last 10 years. The upper shock mount is not really that secure for anything but a shock. VW dealt with the issue by using different diameter torsion bars.
Names? Threads? Not trying to be a dick Steve, I just would hate to discourage someone based on bogus info. Iíve been around for those ten years running coil overs the whole time and the only picture Iíve seen is of Robbies tear which Iím pretty sure was from too short of travel on a shock. I will freely admit if Iím wrong.
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danfromsyr
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:18 am    Post subject: Re: Coilover Springs/Towing a trailer engine wear. Reply with quote

some pics of a torn rear shock bolt

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=685886&highlight=torn+shock+mount
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:29 am    Post subject: Re: Coilover Springs/Towing a trailer engine wear. Reply with quote

I blew out both sides before I put the coil overs on, I was hauling heavy,heavy stuff for work on regular basis long distances. I'm sure I over loaded it dozens of times. The fix is not easy, I super reinforced and double sleeved it. I've run coil overs on stock set ups that were not so abused and they did not blow out the top shock mount. Trail bashing is hell on the rear suspension, period.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:12 am    Post subject: Re: Coilover Springs/Towing a trailer engine wear. Reply with quote

TomWesty wrote:
SGKent wrote:
TomWesty wrote:
SGKent wrote:
considering the number of folks here who get the torn-sheet-metal-where-the-top-rear-shock-mounts syndrome, I would be hesitant to rely on coil overs for ride control. That syndrome is a real PITA to repair.
I have only heard of one person who actually tore a shock mount with coil overs and that was Fusername. He admitted also to some heavy off road bus bashing. The most quoted picture is actually from a shock with insufficient travel, not from too much weight on a coil over. Iíve run coil overs until they crapped out on my Ď71 and am going to air shocks next. Rottenkid runs air shocks and so does RSBadura. I pack around lots of weight in my bus and have run coil overs since about 2002. Your mileage may vary.


There are actually about a dozen people here it has happened to in the last 10 years. The upper shock mount is not really that secure for anything but a shock. VW dealt with the issue by using different diameter torsion bars.
Names? Threads? Not trying to be a dick Steve, I just would hate to discourage someone based on bogus info. Iíve been around for those ten years running coil overs the whole time and the only picture Iíve seen is of Robbies tear which Iím pretty sure was from too short of travel on a shock. I will freely admit if Iím wrong.


Tom, does that look like structural steel to you?

kevineo wrote:
79 Kombi 2.0 FI, Riviera...rear shock

The left (driver) rear shock at upper bolt was torn out after hitting loose RR track. The bolt spins freely so being 3000 miles from home I borrowed a welder and tacked the bushing and bolt in place.
Must I remove fuel tank to gain access weld new nut and bushing??
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

_________________
"There are no great men, there are only great challenges that ordinary men are forced by circumstances to meet." - Adm William F. Halsey Jr

Caveat: I am not telling you what to, or what not to do. When a suggestion is offered, it is wishing you the best, and is based on my experiences as a mechanic, automotive machinist, and from racing in the era your bus came to life. My only goal is to share what has been learned on my path. Smile

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:30 am    Post subject: Re: Coilover Springs/Towing a trailer engine wear. Reply with quote

Those pictures are not a result of running coilovers. They are a result of bottoming the shock *absorber* running over a loose railroad track, transfering a tremendous shock load (no more absorbing). One might argue that coilovers with their added spring rate *might* have prevented the shock from bottoming out and saved the mount.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Coilover Springs/Towing a trailer engine wear. Reply with quote

WhirledTraveller wrote:
Those pictures are not a result of running coilovers. They are a result of bottoming the shock *absorber* running over a loose railroad track, transfering a tremendous shock load (no more absorbing). One might argue that coilovers with their added spring rate *might* have prevented the shock from bottoming out and saved the mount.


that is the result of fatigue. The more the load the sooner the fatigue failure. While hitting stops will put a ballistic spike on load, constant loading in excess of the shocks load will gradually get one there too. But it is a free country and people can do as they please. The guy across the street had two redwoods about 35' from his house. The roots popped his foundation causing massive expense since insurance did not cover it. I planted three about the same distance from my house. When 20 years later they started pushing over a wall 40' away, and lifting concrete 40' away I took them out this year at some expense. It would have been a heck of a lot easier, and less costly, if I had just listened to Dave not to plant them in my yard. But I knew more than him.
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"There are no great men, there are only great challenges that ordinary men are forced by circumstances to meet." - Adm William F. Halsey Jr

Caveat: I am not telling you what to, or what not to do. When a suggestion is offered, it is wishing you the best, and is based on my experiences as a mechanic, automotive machinist, and from racing in the era your bus came to life. My only goal is to share what has been learned on my path. Smile

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Manfreds78bay
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 1:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Coilover Springs/Towing a trailer engine wear. Reply with quote

I re-indexed and put coil overs on with good results. I was towing a small trailer 3k miles and had no ill effects thus far.

FYI i have a 2.0L. She sits perfectly. I would listen to the guys and not depend on coil overs to fix a saggy butt. However, i think the coil overs are a great idea with a trailer and high top setup.

If you are worried about excessive wear on the shock mount, I would swap them out when you are done with your towing.

However, i think that you could only benefit from the coil overs with the extra weight of a high top.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2019 6:03 am    Post subject: Re: Coilover Springs/Towing a trailer engine wear. Reply with quote

SGKent wrote:
TomWesty wrote:
SGKent wrote:
TomWesty wrote:
SGKent wrote:
considering the number of folks here who get the torn-sheet-metal-where-the-top-rear-shock-mounts syndrome, I would be hesitant to rely on coil overs for ride control. That syndrome is a real PITA to repair.
I have only heard of one person who actually tore a shock mount with coil overs and that was Fusername. He admitted also to some heavy off road bus bashing. The most quoted picture is actually from a shock with insufficient travel, not from too much weight on a coil over. Iíve run coil overs until they crapped out on my Ď71 and am going to air shocks next. Rottenkid runs air shocks and so does RSBadura. I pack around lots of weight in my bus and have run coil overs since about 2002. Your mileage may vary.


There are actually about a dozen people here it has happened to in the last 10 years. The upper shock mount is not really that secure for anything but a shock. VW dealt with the issue by using different diameter torsion bars.
Names? Threads? Not trying to be a dick Steve, I just would hate to discourage someone based on bogus info. Iíve been around for those ten years running coil overs the whole time and the only picture Iíve seen is of Robbies tear which Iím pretty sure was from too short of travel on a shock. I will freely admit if Iím wrong.


Tom, does that look like structural steel to you?

kevineo wrote:
79 Kombi 2.0 FI, Riviera...rear shock

The left (driver) rear shock at upper bolt was torn out after hitting loose RR track. The bolt spins freely so being 3000 miles from home I borrowed a welder and tacked the bushing and bolt in place.
Must I remove fuel tank to gain access weld new nut and bushing??
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
I believe that is the photo I was referencing. I am aware that shock mounts are really not designed to support the weight of the bus. I read pretty much this same stuff 17 years ago when I first installed coil overs. One of the coil overs has since died and I intend to replace it with air shocks. I will post on here if and when I tear a shock mount.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2019 8:55 am    Post subject: Re: Coilover Springs/Towing a trailer engine wear. Reply with quote

SGKent wrote:
WhirledTraveller wrote:
Those pictures are not a result of running coilovers. They are a result of bottoming the shock *absorber* running over a loose railroad track, transfering a tremendous shock load (no more absorbing). One might argue that coilovers with their added spring rate *might* have prevented the shock from bottoming out and saved the mount.


I planted three about the same distance from my house. When 20 years later they started pushing over a wall 40' away, and lifting concrete 40' away I took them out this year at some expense. It would have been a heck of a lot easier, and less costly, if I had just listened to Dave not to plant them in my yard. But I knew more than him.


California let you remove redwoods???? Smile
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 6:31 am    Post subject: Re: Coilover Springs/Towing a trailer engine wear. Reply with quote

mattlockwood wrote:
SGKent wrote:
WhirledTraveller wrote:
Those pictures are not a result of running coilovers. They are a result of bottoming the shock *absorber* running over a loose railroad track, transfering a tremendous shock load (no more absorbing). One might argue that coilovers with their added spring rate *might* have prevented the shock from bottoming out and saved the mount.


I planted three about the same distance from my house. When 20 years later they started pushing over a wall 40' away, and lifting concrete 40' away I took them out this year at some expense. It would have been a heck of a lot easier, and less costly, if I had just listened to Dave not to plant them in my yard. But I knew more than him.


California let you remove redwoods???? Smile


The EPA in Washington DC uses them to burn a meth still.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2019 9:49 am    Post subject: Re: Coilover Springs/Towing a trailer engine wear. Reply with quote

WhirledTraveller wrote:
I ran coilovers for a while then re-indexed the torsion bars when I switched to Koni's.

Didn't notice a big improvement doing it "the right way", the coilovers worked fine, but it was nice to check and replace the bushings while it was apart.

Incidentally, they are now gathering dust so PM me if you want some lightly used ones for cheap.


VW OEM, heavy-duty rear suspension damper with concentric coil spring (VW part No. 211 513 031 M), as fitted to 1972~79 VW Type 2, uprated delivery vans, with 1∑2 tonne payload.

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