Hello! Log in or Register   |  Help  |  Donate  |  Buy Shirts New!  See all banner ads | Advertise on TheSamba.com  
TheSamba.com
 
Another, Another, noob 2.1L engine rebuild
Forum Index -> Vanagon Share: Facebook Twitter
Reply to topic
Print View
Quick sort: Show newest posts on top | Show oldest posts on top View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
BrownEye02
Samba Member


Joined: August 03, 2008
Posts: 52
Location: Colorado
BrownEye02 is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2021 1:27 am    Post subject: Another, Another, noob 2.1L engine rebuild Reply with quote

This is the next part to me fixing my newish, to me vanagon GL. My previous thread and why I'm rebuilding can be found here, Engine Toast, What Now. This is also the thread I made before that, fixing a knocking issue coming from the trans bell housing, Why would the drive plate timing pins knick the engine case?.
This will be my first time engine rebuild ever, besides a CRF 450 dirt bike engine I got help from my step-dad with. Please go easy on me. I'm here to learn, get help, and hopefully help others with the idiotic questions I'm going to ask. I'm making slow but steady progress and hope to have this done by summer/spring. My goal is to rebuild on a budget but still replace common sense parts. Seals, bearings, pushrod tubes, among other things if needed. Per my previous post, I had already tossed around an engine swap but want to enjoy the van more before sinking that kind of money into it.

Chapter 1 - Parts / Practice Engine Teardown

Looking sad and dirty. Sad
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Piston one or should I say two out. That was easy. Means the rest should be easy, right? Insert The Lonely Island quote here.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Standard engine stand with cut washers works well! Thanks random Samba form for the suggestion. Very Happy
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Bath time.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Much better, drying time. Damn that was cold!!! 30°F and a pressure washer don't mix for a reason.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


*.O
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Bearings....
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Torch and make shift slide hammer made out of the long starter bolt and a impact socket and she finally came out. Again, thank you random Samba thread. All the other wrist pins needed the same amount of attention.....
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Assuming this happened when the engine hydro locked? Or was caused by the story I feared was not true when I first heard about this engine from the van's seller..... keep reading.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Why you don't let a blown head gasket engine sit.....
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Hello in there!!!
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Case finally split!!! Forgot to get a photo though. Sorry.

More, bearings....
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Soooooo remember that story I hinted at, well here it is. So when I picked up the engine, I asked what happened to it. I was told it started knocking "making noise", the kid drove it to his buddies house, 30 min away and swapped the engine out. I showed up to pickup the engine and it was quite obvious there was a blow head gasket and the engine hydro locked. The kids buddy confirmed the kids story stating it was making awful sounds when he showed up. Not sure why but I didn't really put much thought into it. There was a rod and piston already out of the engine when I showed up. I just blew it off thinking they wanted to see what was making the noise.
Well, with the below I'm now awake. "So hold up, your telling me you drove this thing for 30min with a bent rod!!!?" Shocked I'm no longer thinking they pulled that piston. I'm thinking it let go or basically was ready to let go when he showed up at his friend's house.
When I split the case I found this nut sitting in this spot. It had imbedded itself so well I first though it was just a loose nut/bolt that was inside the case. After a second or so I realized that made no senses and had finally found one of the first piston (piston two's) rod nut.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Thankfully it wasn't too hard to get out. How there's not a hole in this case, I have no clue.....

Annnnnnnnnd time.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.





Chapter 2 - Main Engine Removal and Teardown

D Day. The time has come. Dad is down to help knock this out in one day.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Don't forget where everything goes.....
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Everyone should have a metal jet ski stand. Even if they don't have a jet ski. I've used this thing for so many things other then holding up a ski.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Lets Quentin Tarantino this. Something in this photo wasn't there when we started. Can you guess what?
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



If you guessed PVC pipe holding up the hatch, you guessed right! Here's why....
P.S. Goreaphobian's I'm sorry. Samba doesn't support the spoiler tag.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Right when I pulled the van into the garage I saw my hatch wouldn't quite stay open due to the cold and yes, had the thought, "That's gonna come back to bite me later". Well it did, ten fold..... Stood up into the latch with my head. Luckily it wasn't as bad as it looked and didn't need stitches. Everyone knows you can't pull an engine with out shedding some blood, you'll have bad luck otherwise. Very Happy Back to work!

Engines out. Again, don't forget where things go....
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Heads, jugs, and Piston two are out! Things are looking great! Will check measurements on everything before assuming anything though. I especially want to make sure I don't have the bad Chinese pistons that have the wrong wrist pin to piston head spacing basically making them 1.9L pistons. I had one lifter that would go flat and was defiantly flat when it came out. Marked it and will check its internals on re-assemble. From the looks of it, it should just need to be bled.
Did a light wire brush to the pistons to verify they were installed correctly and they were.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Everything's off the block!
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Last time I'll see the block together for a while...
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


And she's split. Uh oh..... I see shiny treasure in the oil pan. First time I've seen metal shavings during the tear down.
Whats that poking its head out? Question That be bearing, arrrrr.....
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Well, at least I now know why my oil pressure would plummet after warm up. Spun bearing Sad . Can you say path of least resistance. You can see the heat discoloration in the crank in the previous photo. The cam looked OK, thank god!
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



That's currently where I'm at. It looks like the oil pickup and filter did their job since I only found flakes when I got to the inside of the pan. I'll be cleaning EVERYTHING including all the oil passages. I'll also be going over everything with a fine toothed comb to make sure those shiny buggers didn't find there way elsewhere.
My hope for this coming weekend is to clean the block and start digging into why I spun a bearing. I'm hoping its just wrongly sized bearings but I have my doubts..... Only one way to find out.


Last edited by BrownEye02 on Sun Feb 07, 2021 1:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
MarkWard
Samba Member


Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 14120
Location: Palm Beach County, Florida
MarkWard is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2021 5:57 am    Post subject: Re: Another, Another, noob 2.1L engine rebuild Reply with quote

That bearing looks more like it’s beat than spun in the picture. If it had actually spun, the locater tangs would be gone and the case would have been been galled where the bearing seats.

I read you want to do this on the cheap. Your going to have to clean the bare case halves, torque them to spec and have a qualified person check the crank and cam bores. Unless supply has changed, there are not oversized OD main bearings. So the case may be done.

The other case even though it through a rod, might be usable if your case is not savable. Generally when a rod disconnects it comes out the case.

You’ll likely end up grinding the crankshaft. Make sure you can get your hands on oversized ID bearings before you grind. The machine shop might be able to access the bearings for you.

The thing about a WBX engine is the costs adds up quick and you really don’t want to skip corners if you want. Good luck with the build.
_________________
1982 Vanagon Camper with ALH TDI.
1990 Vanagon Camper Syncro.
In Car https://youtu.be/5hbfdUJR88Q
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
BrownEye02
Samba Member


Joined: August 03, 2008
Posts: 52
Location: Colorado
BrownEye02 is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2021 4:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Another, Another, noob 2.1L engine rebuild Reply with quote

Alright, got my first set of questions. I went through some things with my step-dad today and came across a couple items that have us puzzled. Our big thing is were trying to pin point the lack of oil pressure as he feels the bearing spun due to lack of oil. Some of my other bearings were showing wear as well once I tore everything apart.

We noticed in the oil pressure relief "cavity" that it looks like there might be a chip broken off. We believe this isn't the sealing surface the pressure piston rests against but wanted to to check with someone on the forms to verify/see if any red flags go off.

In the photo I've highlighted the chips that are missing in green. The chip is out of the inner red arrow surface. We believe the oil pressure relief piston seals/rests against the outer red arrow surface which shouldn't cause problems.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


An un-painted version to show that outer surface is in tact all the way around.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Here is a photos of the parts engine which shows the same separate surfaces but no chips.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The second question is in regards to CAM's. The CAM in the main engine is with in spec of of a stock CAM and is in great shape. We noticed the parts engine cam had a larger lift. From some research I've done we believe it to be a CP 2206 as it has a .329 exhaust lift, but just wanted to confirm. Sadly I won't be able to use that CAM as it was trashed. Sad Here are shots of the part numbers.

Main engine CAM.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Parts engine CAM.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



The final question is to see if anyone else has done the oil pickup tube/oil pressure return mod and had any more details on it/tips and tricks? We just like the idea of having the oil dump back into the pan instead of re-circulate as well as remove the possibility of that passage between the cases not sealing right and sucking air.
As of now our main conclusion as to why things failed is that something or things allowed air to enter the oil system.


Last edited by BrownEye02 on Sat Feb 06, 2021 11:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
danfromsyr
Samba Member


Joined: March 01, 2004
Posts: 13425
Location: Syracuse, NY
danfromsyr is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2021 10:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Another, Another, noob 2.1L engine rebuild Reply with quote

that motor is done, it's junk (IMHO) and will potentially cost you more to learn on than you care to count. its good to take apart and study as you are doing
find a decent take out motor from a swap, there's a few swap shops in CO to ask around to.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

_________________
Abscate wrote:
These are the reasons we have words like “wanker”
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
?Waldo?
Samba Member


Joined: February 22, 2006
Posts: 8709
Location: Where?
?Waldo? is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2021 11:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Another, Another, noob 2.1L engine rebuild Reply with quote

Hatch struts are cheap. That would be step 1.
_________________
HIGHEST QUALITY M-TDI PUMPS FOR SALE. PM for details.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Abscate Premium Member
Samba Member


Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 15577
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
Abscate is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 4:27 am    Post subject: Re: Another, Another, noob 2.1L engine rebuild Reply with quote

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

_________________
.ssS!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
djkeev Premium Member
Samba Moderator


Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 26277
Location: North West New Jersey
djkeev is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 8:22 am    Post subject: Re: Another, Another, noob 2.1L engine rebuild Reply with quote

This example is out of aluminum but many make them out of a sliced PVC pipe.

Just slip it over the extended strut rod.

pjackman wrote:
Here is an excellent solution for a sagging tailgate hatch. It's a short section of square aluminum tubing with one of the corners sawed off. It came with my Paulchen bike rack. One of these on one of the struts holds the hatch open when it's loaded with 2 bikes.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


And yes, using jack stands is an excellent habit to develop.
They may be out of sight in your photo forward of the jacks......

Dave
_________________
Stop Dead Photo Links how to post photos

Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473

Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537

Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
danfromsyr
Samba Member


Joined: March 01, 2004
Posts: 13425
Location: Syracuse, NY
danfromsyr is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 10:23 am    Post subject: Re: Another, Another, noob 2.1L engine rebuild Reply with quote

guess money isn't the only thing you are going to burn.
the kerosene heater and gas&paint cans are a bit of a concern too.

but seriously you can be far more ahead with a hand me down long block than trying to get all of the particulate matter out of the oil passages and that's even if the block/crank aren't twerked too.

that autopsy is a great learning in how things should work in the other engine you are rebuilding.

as for jackstands even a cinderblock is better than none..
_________________
Abscate wrote:
These are the reasons we have words like “wanker”
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
BrownEye02
Samba Member


Joined: August 03, 2008
Posts: 52
Location: Colorado
BrownEye02 is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 12:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Another, Another, noob 2.1L engine rebuild Reply with quote

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


djkeev wrote:

They may be out of sight in your photo forward of the jacks......
Dave

DING DING DING!
We have a winner!!!
There's one on the other side where the jack is at. The jack is there as a safety catch in case the van shifts off the stand for any reason while we were removing the motor.

danfromsyr wrote:

the kerosene heater and gas&paint cans are a bit of a concern too.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Their on the other side of the garage completely sealed up..........

?Waldo? wrote:

Hatch struts are cheap. That would be step 1.

I have a laundry list of items that need replacing on the van, this being one of them. Until this thing runs and drives again I see no point in sinking anymore money into the van itself.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
?Waldo?
Samba Member


Joined: February 22, 2006
Posts: 8709
Location: Where?
?Waldo? is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 1:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Another, Another, noob 2.1L engine rebuild Reply with quote

When you accidentally bump the pvc tube out of place and the hatch falls on your head again, you might see why ponying up $30 for a pair of hatch struts was the inexpensive choice. I'm surprised the first time wasn't convincing enough. I typically keep a spare set ready for install.
_________________
HIGHEST QUALITY M-TDI PUMPS FOR SALE. PM for details.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Ahwahnee
Samba Member


Joined: June 05, 2010
Posts: 9069
Location: Mt Lemmon, AZ
Ahwahnee is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 4:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Another, Another, noob 2.1L engine rebuild Reply with quote

?Waldo? wrote:
...I typically keep a spare set ready for install.


O'Reilly's sells them with a lifetime guarantee. I have lost count how many I've gone through over the years (certainly dates back to when they were Checker Auto Parts).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
BrownEye02
Samba Member


Joined: August 03, 2008
Posts: 52
Location: Colorado
BrownEye02 is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 5:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Another, Another, noob 2.1L engine rebuild Reply with quote

Ahwahnee wrote:

O'Reilly's sells them with a lifetime guarantee..

Good to know. Defiantly will be picking up a pair after this!!
I keep getting in the mind set that no local autoparts stores stock parts thanks to my 65 bus. I need to get out of that mindset with the van and at least check with them before ordering through gowesty, van cafe, vanagain, etc.

?Waldo? wrote:

I'm surprised the first time wasn't convincing enough.

The hatch struts are good enough to keep the hatch mostly up, it just sags a bit. Bashing my head was more my fault then the worn out hatch struts. I'd give it a 80/20 of me being at fault. If I'd of just slowed down and not jumped up I wouldn't have had that problem....

Anywho, back to the topic at hand.
Did a bit more cleaning today on the casings and there looking fresh.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Found some case markings while doing so and wanted to see if these mean anything to anyone.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

The crank seems to have some markings as well.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I also got around to taking some better photos of the crank and rod bearings. Hoping the machine shop can just do a polish to clean things up as it feels like its just bearing material build up/rub off and not scoring but will just have to see....

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
BrownEye02
Samba Member


Joined: August 03, 2008
Posts: 52
Location: Colorado
BrownEye02 is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 8:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Another, Another, noob 2.1L engine rebuild Reply with quote

Doing a bit of proactive research I wanted to confirm if this would be a recommend engine case torque sequence? Pulled the image and details from cone's post here but added a number sequence to the picture and instructions.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Yellow (1) - M8 stud, fasten first to 20 Nm

Green (2-8) - M10 studs, fasten to 50 Nm (3 stages: 10-40-50 Nm); Ex - has external nut ; In - Internal nut in the right water jacket

Red & Purple (9-22) - M8 studs (Red), M8 bolts (purple) fasten to 20 Nm (3 stages: 8-16-20 Nm)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Vanagon All times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Savings Time
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

About | Help! | Advertise | Donate | Premium Membership | Privacy/Terms of Use | Contact Us | Site Map
Copyright © 1996-2020, Everett Barnes. All Rights Reserved.
Not affiliated with or sponsored by Volkswagen of America | Forum powered by phpBB