| Author |
Message |
djkeev
Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32983
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
|
 Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2020 5:22 pm Post subject: CV's, Axles and Boots...... they are only original once! |
 |
|
Years ago I acquired a disassembled 1986 Tintop from the PO of my 86 Camper.
He had meticulously disassembled it and boxed it up many many years ago for spare parts.
The unit only had 61,470 miles on it.
It was a total from a severe accident. In the late 1990’s or early 2000’s.
I've used or given away most of the Van over the years but I still have an axle assembly in an old dirty plastic bag under my tool box.
I pulled it out today because the 90 I'm getting needs a Right Axle. I was mainly hoping for a 22 1/2” axles but I noticed that this axle is a low mileage original survivor.
How many have complete axles with 61,000 miles on them any more?
The youngest of our units is 29 years old, about to turn 30. The oldest is 40.
I thought I would document this old survivor before and as I take it apart in preparation for a renewed life.
The axle assembly .....
It is dirty and I was hoping to identify the wheel end by the grease tgat seems to build up in the lower trailing arm, but I was unable to discern which end went where.
Anyway..... both ends.......
I find it interesting that the axle side of the boot is without a clamp. No clamp, no Zip tie...... nothing.
All of the bolts are hex, not triple squares. They have the plates and the schoor washers too.
Next item of interest was the center spline seems to be identical wheel side or axle side.
As I clean I'll examine the stars to see if there are differences. I marked the wheel side so I know how it was installed.
I've read that some stars have a raised collar to identify wheel side..... nope, not on these.
The joints are genuine VW LOBRO....
I highlighted the markings with white paint.
These also have just one (1) groove on them, not the one and three as others have.
This groove faces out to the wheel.
The boots are genuine VW, I haven't a photo of the numbers yet but will add one soon.
What is of note is the inner cage. It is different wheel side (single groove) and axle side (no groove).
The Wheel side has a very thin edge with a machined step on the inside.....
See the screw driver tip indicating the thin edge.....
The axle side of the cage is much wider with no step ......
What is really amazing is the lack of any wear!
The grooves the balls run in is polished but no discernible wear at all.
And selfishly what really put a smile on my face us the axle shaft is 22 1/2” long!
Dave
_________________
Stop Dead Photo Links how to post photos
Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473
Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537
Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Vanagon Nut
Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008
Posts: 10495
Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2020 6:17 pm Post subject: Re: CV's, Axles and Boots...... they are only original once! |
|
|
Very interesting details Dave. Thanks for those.
Do you think the layer of stuff you removed to expose brand name etc is the VW Waxoyl (sp ?) stuff? I saw similar "stuff" on CV's I replaced on my '88 which, purportedly, had fairly low miles on it when I got it. I'm pretty sure there were no clamps or whatever at small end of each boot. Can't recall what wear looked like.
Neil.
I think all CV's had the same bolts
_________________
1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
(VW Gas I4)
1988 Westy DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 52269
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2020 7:04 pm Post subject: Re: CV's, Axles and Boots...... they are only original once! |
|
|
The bevel side of the cage should be towards the axle shaft to give it a tiny bit of extra clearance at its maximum angle of operation. I think the inner races may be reversed as well, not sure and would need more pictures to tell. The grease makes me think they have been serviced at some point, the OEM stuff would get hard enough to often show cracks, while the contact areas of the races might well be dry of grease.
Do the outer races have a build date on them? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
djkeev
Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32983
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Abscate 
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 23759
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:03 am Post subject: Re: CV's, Axles and Boots...... they are only original once! |
|
|
It’s rarer with moly grease but it can happen. The oil separates from the wax and just leaves it behind, essentially.
_________________
🇺🇸 🇺🇸 🇺🇸 🇺🇸 🇺🇸 🇺🇸 🇺🇸 🍊 🍊 🍊 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 10614
Location: Western WA
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:21 am Post subject: Re: CV's, Axles and Boots...... they are only original once! |
|
|
| djkeev wrote: |
I seriously doubt any VW owner serviced these joints. They have 60,000 miles of dirt and grime on them.
|
Only a fool.
A fool that was planning to keep the van for 34 years would (wisely) change out the break-in grease early, like 10,000 miles.
This fool has the boundless free time, obsession with vans, and foresight ...... of a retireee.
Yet possesses the 'qualities' at the tender age of 30 years old +/-.
This fool would also have the prescience that the 1986 CVs are better quality than any new CVs available "in 2020".
This fool could have made a killing in the stock market if not fussing with vans.
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, NEW oil rings (!) 2Peloquins, 3knobs, SyncroShop pressure-oiled pinion-bearing & GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox.
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered original gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 52269
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:26 am Post subject: Re: CV's, Axles and Boots...... they are only original once! |
|
|
| Abscate wrote: |
| It’s rarer with moly grease but it can happen. The oil separates from the wax and just leaves it behind, essentially. |
The oil you see on the outside of the joint often comes from the inside leaving the grease drier and drier over time. It is my opinion that the original grease was really dry to start maybe because VW wanted to keep the outside of the joint looking dry and shiny for sales purposes. I know on my '91 at around 30K miles while on a road trip up into British Columbia more than one of my CV's started making noise all at once. Pumping the available Brand X lithium grease under the boot with a needle got me rolling again.
I also bought my first VW Thing when it had about 30k miles on it, two of the joints had already been replaced and in the other two the grease was very dry and doing little in the way of lubrication. On talking with the dealer I was advised not to use the factory grease as it dried out too easily. They handed my a pile of half filled cartridges of aftermarket moly grease and I haven't looked back. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 10614
Location: Western WA
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:46 am Post subject: Re: CV's, Axles and Boots...... they are only original once! |
|
|
Those hex bolts are suspect too.
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, NEW oil rings (!) 2Peloquins, 3knobs, SyncroShop pressure-oiled pinion-bearing & GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox.
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered original gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 52269
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2020 10:03 am Post subject: Re: CV's, Axles and Boots...... they are only original once! |
|
|
| Sodo wrote: |
| Those hex bolts are suspect too. |
I was thinking that myself, seems the triple square became the standard in the mid to late 70's. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Yellow Rabbit
Samba Member
Joined: August 31, 2005
Posts: 1156
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2020 12:12 pm Post subject: Re: CV's, Axles and Boots...... they are only original once! |
|
|
| I just repacked my original VW CVs. My van is also low mileage. The joints looked like these and they all had standard hex head bolts too. It’s an 85 built late in 84. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 52269
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2020 12:49 pm Post subject: Re: CV's, Axles and Boots...... they are only original once! |
|
|
| Yellow Rabbit wrote: |
| I just repacked my original VW CVs. My van is also low mileage. The joints looked like these and they all had standard hex head bolts too. It’s an 85 built late in 84. |
Having hex head bolts likely means your boots have been replaced at least once before using a kit that came with replacement bolts, though VW may have at times substituted hex head bolts on the line if they couldn't get enough triple square ones. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
djkeev
Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32983
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2020 5:08 pm Post subject: Re: CV's, Axles and Boots...... they are only original once! |
|
|
OK boys and girls, it is story time!
A take of two 86 Vanagons.
There is a lot of conjecture over this axle and even after this story there will be
Gaps in our knowledge.
I called John, my PO, he lives down in South Jersey near the Atlantic City Expressway.
We haven't talked for a few years so we caught up on goings on. His Wife passed away, she was a HEAVY smoker which honestly was the major minus about me getting the camper from him. It is also a big reason I gutted it completely, scrubbed the heck out of the body and replaced the upholstery!
He asked about the Camper, I said it lives in Oregon now with my Brother but is running well.
I told him I'd like some history on the parts Van I got from him.
John was in Commercial HVAC and had a coworker Harold.
Harold had an 86 tintop he purchased new back in 86.
They didn't live far apart, worked together so they at times rode together. John had the company truck so most often they took the truck but for the smaller gigs they would at times take the tintop.
He began wanting a vacation vehicle and based on his good impression from Harolds tintop ended up buying the 86 weekender in 1990. He had it until 2012 when he sold it to me.
Anyway, Harold swerved to miss a deer and took out the RF of the Van, totaling it. (John thinks alcohol may be the real reason) this was roughly 1994 or so.
The Van was paid for, so he didn't have collision coverage and it was totaled.
John bought the crashed unit from him and removed everything he could remove from it and stored it in his garage and a shed in his yard for spare parts, the stripped carcass went off to the scrap yard.
As things go, when you have something on hand, you don't need it! So when I bought the Camper he offered me all the extra parts for extra money.
I turned him down but later when I needed a transaxle called him and bought the whole lot.
John doesn't know much of the service history on Harolds unit. But said that he couldn't imagine him having had axle problems because the unit wasn't used much and only had fifty sixty thousand on it.
So I learned from John that these axles only ran for 8 years. And from the units speedometer I know it was for 61,000 miles.
Are they original? I don't rightly know but I do know that the unit was a VERY early 86.
From what I've been told of production numbers back then, 20,000 or so were produced in a month, from the engine number I'm guessing it was Probably built in the first week of August 1985.
The engine number is only in the 4,000’s, the first year of the 2.1 engine.
Somewhere I have the title, I'll need to root around and find it.
I guess the question is, when did VW begin installing the triple square?
The axle boots are genuine VW, if they were replaced years later, let's pick a realistic year out of the hat and say 1990.
Well, heck yes they were using triple squares in production in 1990.
If you purchased genuine axle boots from VW, IF they supplied them with new bolts, why the heck would they be hex bolts? That just doesn't make sense to me. When parts are upgraded the replacement parts are generally superseded to the newer number and the upgraded part is supplied.
Sure, the dealer could have new old stock on the shelf I suppose .....
My 86 I got from John was built in 5/86, a very late build date. It had a mix of hex and triple square bolts in the joints.
John says he never serviced the axles. Unless they were done before 1990 when John purchased it. He got it from VW in Atlantic City.
Now I'm not at all certain these joints are factory originals. But my boots on my 86 camper were not torn in 2012. John says he didn't replace them during his twenty two years of ownership. He did not use it for several years before I got it because of a leaking engine.
I find it hard to swallow the concept that both boots would have gone bad in 61,000 miles and less than 8 years.
Not when many owners are reporting hundreds of thousands of miles and decades of use on their boots!
I'm going with factory installed hex bolts in August 1985.
You are free to feel otherwise of course.
If you have a verified production change date to triple squares, let us know.
Dave
_________________
Stop Dead Photo Links how to post photos
Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473
Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537
Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 52269
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2020 5:38 pm Post subject: Re: CV's, Axles and Boots...... they are only original once! |
|
|
| My personally opinion is that the crappy OEM grease will typically damage the joints by 30K miles, this has been my opinion for decades and nothing I have run into in more recent years has changed my opinion. If you service the joints early and use a good grease, then the joints can run for a hundred thousand miles will very little wear, be swapped to the other side, run a hundred thousand miles again, swapped end for end on the same side, get another hundred thousand, swap sides and do it again, but if you don't service the joints at the first 30K mile mark their life expectancy will be comparatively very short. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
djkeev
Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32983
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2020 5:39 pm Post subject: Re: CV's, Axles and Boots...... they are only original once! |
|
|
| Wildthings wrote: |
The bevel side of the cage should be towards the axle shaft to give it a tiny bit of extra clearance at its maximum angle of operation. I think the inner races may be reversed as well, not sure and would need more pictures to tell. The grease makes me think they have been serviced at some point, the OEM stuff would get hard enough to often show cracks, while the contact areas of the races might well be dry of grease.
Do the outer races have a build date on them? |
FWIW.........
I was on Westfalia.org
I found this post by Capt Mike which describes exactly how I found my cages.......
"One side of the cage is flat and the other has a very slight bevel. The bevel side goes toward the transmission or axle flange (away from the boot). This is most noticeable in the Bentley 42.9, diagram 40-014."
Dave
_________________
Stop Dead Photo Links how to post photos
Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473
Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537
Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Love My Westy
Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2007
Posts: 1894
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2020 5:51 pm Post subject: Re: CV's, Axles and Boots...... they are only original once! |
|
|
For what it's worth, my '86 Weekender had a passinger side outside CV joint go bad in 1990 on our first trip to Mexico. The joint became noisy with only about 31,000 miles on it. I had it replaced by VW when I got home and they gave me the old parts including a CV that had grease that had turned hard in it. The boot was not torn.
Last edited by Love My Westy on Thu Dec 10, 2020 7:14 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
crazyvwvanman
Samba Member
Joined: January 28, 2008
Posts: 10364
Location: Orbiting San Diego
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2020 6:16 pm Post subject: Re: CV's, Axles and Boots...... they are only original once! |
|
|
Looking at one of your joint photos it is stamped 4986.
That is week 49 of 1986, well into Model Year 1987 vehicle production.
I've owned a lot of Vanagons over 30 years now. I'd say the Allen head CV bolts were stock most years.
Mark
| djkeev wrote: |
......
So I learned from John that these axles only ran for 8 years. And from the units speedometer I know it was for 61,000 miles.
Are they original? I don't rightly know but I do know that the unit was a VERY early 86.
From what I've been told of production numbers back then, 20,000 or so were produced in a month, from the engine number I'm guessing it was Probably built in the first week of August 1985.
The engine number is only in the 4,000’s, the first year of the 2.1 engine.
Somewhere I have the title, I'll need to root around and find it.
I guess the question is, when did VW begin installing the triple square?
..............
I'm going with factory installed hex bolts in August 1985.
You are free to feel otherwise of course.
If you have a verified production change date to triple squares, let us know.
Dave |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dobryan
Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2006
Posts: 17126
Location: Brookeville, MD
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Love My Westy
Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2007
Posts: 1894
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2020 7:14 pm Post subject: Re: CV's, Axles and Boots...... they are only original once! |
|
|
| For what it's worth, my '86 Weekender had a passinger side outside CV joint go bad in 1990 on our first trip to Mexico. The joint became noisy with only about 31,000 miles on it. I had it replaced by VW when I got home and they gave me the old parts including a CV that had grease that had turned hard in it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 52269
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2020 10:42 pm Post subject: Re: CV's, Axles and Boots...... they are only original once! |
|
|
| djkeev wrote: |
I was on Westfalia.org
Dave |
Is the axle assembly shown in the Vanagon Bentley a Beetle Axle?
Here is a drawing of a Bay Window CV from Ratwell.com, note you can see the projection lines for the bevel on the axle side of the joint. One the same page he also shows a joint assembled exactly the opposite.
People get away running these CV assembled all different kind of way and if you aren't running them at such a steep angle that the bevel is needed for clearancing, then you will get away with it just fine. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
djkeev
Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32983
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
