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Dusty1
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Joined: April 16, 2004
Posts: 1468
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 Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2024 11:33 am Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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It's absolutely bizarre how much capacity could be brought back on line.
Near as I can tell the Seabrook and Vermont Yankee nukes have been "de- commissioned". So check 'em, repair 'em, re- fuel 'em and have 'em ready to go "just for back- up".
Same goes for coal fired. Stack up some coal. Have 'em ready to go.
We have a garbage fired plant the hippies put outta business. It used to burn garbage to make steam. Steam made electricity. It's still there and it's still hooked up. Burn something else.
There is more low head hydro- electric capacity available than I can keep track of.
Nah. Just buy a Tesla and wait in line to charge it. Give big chunks of your money to Musk Melon even though he has plenty of money already. 
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heimlich 
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Joined: November 20, 2016
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Location: Houston, Texas
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| Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2024 12:36 pm Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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| Dusty1 wrote: |
Same goes for coal fired. Stack up some coal. Have 'em ready to go.
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They are already doing this in the North East. The governments there are paying the electricity generating companies millions of dollars to keep the coal plants maintained in case they need them.
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oprn
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Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12890
Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2024 2:59 pm Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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Here they converted the coal plants to natural gas. Now they are filling in the strip mines and reclaiming the land. No going back for those! Problem is there is only a fraction of the heat in natural gas compared to coal.
I am not sure if this is true but I am told that at -30 the wind turbines are shut down due to the risk of the blades shattering from the cold. As far as ice build upon the blades, that like with aircraft only happens only in a small window of temperatures around the freezing mark. At -20, -30, -40 it's not an issue. I have also been told that there is heaters built into the leading edges of the blades for ice control. Again I cannot confirm that.
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heimlich
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Joined: November 20, 2016
Posts: 6673
Location: Houston, Texas
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| Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2024 3:22 pm Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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| oprn wrote: |
Here they converted the coal plants to natural gas. Now they are filling in the strip mines and reclaiming the land. No going back for those! Problem is there is only a fraction of the heat in natural gas compared to coal.
I am not sure if this is true but I am told that at -30 the wind turbines are shut down due to the risk of the blades shattering from the cold. As far as ice build upon the blades, that like with aircraft only happens only in a small window of temperatures around the freezing mark. At -20, -30, -40 it's not an issue. I have also been told that there is heaters built into the leading edges of the blades for ice control. Again I cannot confirm that. |
Natural gas is definitely better compared to coal. It burns very clean. Coal plants have to be left ON in order to be able to use them. You can't just go turn them on and get electricity from them. You have to wait. Gas plants can be fired right up on demand. There are a lot of benefits to natural gas. Natural gas is overly abundant right now because of the technologic advancements in fracking. It can be a very cheap source of electricity. Governments are making it expensive. Lot's of gas there in the Rockies in Canada. We have carbon capture technology for natural gas which makes it zero emissions.
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Dusty1
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Joined: April 16, 2004
Posts: 1468
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| Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2024 4:41 pm Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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| heimlich wrote: |
| Dusty1 wrote: |
Same goes for coal fired. Stack up some coal. Have 'em ready to go.
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They are already doing this in the North East. The governments there are paying the electricity generating companies millions of dollars to keep the coal plants maintained in case they need them. |
The one I've seen myself is the relationship of a "breaker" in Millersburg, Pennsylvania and a coal fired generating plant out on I-81. It's either in Millersburg or the next town over. I'm a tourist not a resident.
For those who don't know the coal business a "breaker" was a mill that broke up coal and screened it into various sizes from stove coal down to pea coal.
Near as I can tell some of the generating plants run on coal slurry.
The Millersburg breaker had an enormous separating pond. The way the process worked was the coal was washed for dust abatement. The coal dust went into a settling pond as very watery slurry. The settling pond now dry contains an enormous amount of coal albeit in a form not previously used. They're using it, now.
My late brother heated his home with a Keystoker. That's a made in Pennsylvania self- stoking coal furnace. It burns rice coal. Works just dandy and it's way cheaper than oil or propane. Nat gas isn't an option here. Trick is to light the Keystoker in October and let it burn out in May. Pull out a hod of cinders every day and fill its hopper every other day. Seven tons provided all the heat and hot water for a four bedroom / three bath house on the edge of the glacier all winter.
For the record I drive a Prius. I burn trees all winter long. There may be a better way but you'd have to prove it to me.
| heimlich wrote: |
| There are a lot of benefits to natural gas. Natural gas is overly abundant right now because of the technologic advancements in fracking. It can be a very cheap source of electricity. Governments are making it expensive. Lot's of gas there in the Rockies in Canada. We have carbon capture technology for natural gas which makes it zero emissions. |
As long as you don't mind fracking up the groundwater. Near as I can tell part of the extraction process is pumping brine in to push the gas out. If you had fresh cool spring water... you won't have that when they're done.
Nature is balanced in such a way nothing is "environmentally friendly". We're parasites. Fortunately the planet will still be here a few billion years after we're gone.
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heimlich
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Joined: November 20, 2016
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Location: Houston, Texas
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| Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2024 6:33 pm Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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| Dusty1 wrote: |
Fortunately the planet will still be here a few billion years after we're gone.
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Would you rather see the planet survive or the humans survive? The planet is just a stepping stone for us to go to other planets. We can save the planet, save the humans, or a little of both. But for Humans to survive beyond the life of the planet there will be destruction.
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oprn
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Joined: November 13, 2016
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Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2024 8:23 pm Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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The older I get and the more I see of human nature the less concerned I am with survival of the human race. We are not very desirable creatures! 
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oprn
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Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12890
Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2024 8:44 pm Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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| heimlich wrote: |
| Natural gas is definitely better compared to coal. It burns very clean. Coal plants have to be left ON in order to be able to use them. You can't just go turn them on and get electricity from them. You have to wait. Gas plants can be fired right up on demand. There are a lot of benefits to natural gas. Natural gas is overly abundant right now because of the technologic advancements in fracking. It can be a very cheap source of electricity. Governments are making it expensive. Lot's of gas there in the Rockies in Canada. We have carbon capture technology for natural gas which makes it zero emissions. |
True and we no longer see the yellow sulphur streak across our western sky here from the coal but few realize the volume of power generation we have lost in the natural gas conversions. No new natural gas power plants have been built to make up for that loss. Instead the focus has been on wind power.
I have nothing against wind power except that it is not dependable. The last 24 hours we have had winds in the 80 to 100 km range and the wind farm of about 120 units west of us has been shut down. So - if there is too much wind they shut them off, when there is not enough wind they shut them off, when it gets too cold they shut them off! They can only run them in good weather.
Solar is not much better. In the winter they are covered with ice and snow and don't do much on cloudy days. Also in the winter here the sun only shines 7.5 hours out of 24. In the summer we get 17.5 hours of sun in 24.
So both forms of energy generation work best in the nicest weather. Well guess what? That's NOT when we need it the most!
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Dusty1
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Joined: April 16, 2004
Posts: 1468
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| Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2024 2:48 am Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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The U.S. navy is de- commissioning a few aircraft carriers. Scrappin' 'em. They say the difficult part is disposing of the several nuclear reactors in each ship. Disposing of them?!
That's like dismantling a VW and tossing its engine in the dumpster.
There are eight of 'em on the USS Enterprise.
Refurbish and refuel those puppies. Plop 'em on a barge and float 'em up the Hudson. Your little town can have its own atomic power plant!
Those boats had a 50 year service life. 50 years with no glow in the dark sailors is a pretty good safety record.
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KTPhil
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Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34116
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2024 8:56 am Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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The type of reactor on those Navy vessels is ultra safe and reliable. Not enough power for large cities, but in rural areas a small community can be served by one or two at low cost. Makes too much sense for utility companies, though...
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heimlich
VWNOS.com
Joined: November 20, 2016
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Location: Houston, Texas
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| Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2024 10:20 am Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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I doubt the military nor the government would allow that. The Uranium on those vessels is enriched to a much higher level than the Uranium used in civilian applications.
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KTPhil
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Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2024 11:00 am Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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| heimlich wrote: |
| I doubt the military nor the government would allow that. The Uranium on those vessels is enriched to a much higher level than the Uranium used in civilian applications. |
The cooling apparatus is what makes those so much safer. Regardless of enrichment, it may make sense to consider those designs.
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Abscate
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Joined: October 05, 2014
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Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2024 12:35 pm Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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| KTPhil wrote: |
| heimlich wrote: |
| I doubt the military nor the government would allow that. The Uranium on those vessels is enriched to a much higher level than the Uranium used in civilian applications. |
The cooling apparatus is what makes those so much safer. Regardless of enrichment, it may make sense to consider those designs. |
And the unlimited MIC budget that makes them completely uneconomical for power generation.
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finster
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Location: north o' the border
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| Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2024 9:30 am Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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| KTPhil wrote: |
| The type of reactor on those Navy vessels is ultra safe and reliable. Not enough power for large cities, but in rural areas a small community can be served by one or two at low cost. Makes too much sense for utility companies, though... |
in the uk they keep saying that rolls royce (nuclear) are developing small reactors which could be used to power rural communities etc and I keep saying the same thing - they've had them for years running in subs, what needs developing?
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/02/22/ro...t-engines/
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Abscate
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| Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2024 10:51 am Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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The rear half of a boomer is one of the most highly classified things in the military. Most submariners never see the rear half. I’m a technical expert on some of the diagnostics but have to attend the meetings by proxy because just the holding of another passport disqualifies me from clearance.
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raygreenwood
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Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2024 12:24 pm Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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| finster wrote: |
| KTPhil wrote: |
| The type of reactor on those Navy vessels is ultra safe and reliable. Not enough power for large cities, but in rural areas a small community can be served by one or two at low cost. Makes too much sense for utility companies, though... |
in the uk they keep saying that rolls royce (nuclear) are developing small reactors which could be used to power rural communities etc and I keep saying the same thing - they've had them for years running in subs, what needs developing?
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/02/22/ro...t-engines/ |
Because the type of nuclear plant running in subs is FAR too small to power much on the land. So, you would have to run them in groups in a plant (which is a good idea).
So for instance, the average submarine nuclear power plant produces ~150-200 megawatts of THERMAL energy. Once it goes through the steam transfer loop you will lose approximately 2/3 of that thermal energy. Yes it gets recycled and reheated so its not like you are "losing" it....but while recycling heat creates high "efficiency"....it stills limits the actual electrical output cpability at any given time.
So that 150-200 megawatts translates to 51 to 68 megawatts maxuimum electrical output. Then you will lose roughly 10% of that just in transmission. Another 2% in step up and another 2% in step down. Call it 15% loss rate.
That makes it an ~43 to 59 megawatt output. Thats not very much for the cost of this process. And, nuclear reactor like this have a lifespan because certain parts of the plumbing become brittle from radiation. From what I have read, the lifespan of a ship or submarine reactor is ab out 25 years before full replacement is required. They typically only need refueling once in their service lifetime.
To me, none of this is a deal breaker. But as they note, you really need a plan and some development. I think I stepped through what this might look like many pages back in this thread.
A large commercial steam generating power plant has about 3400 megawatts thermal output and about 1100 megawatts actual power output before transmission and stepping losses.
A plant like this is semi-regional and makes sense for its size.
If you take that much output as a model for plant size....and want to run small modular nuclear power instead of coal of gas....you would need 17 reactors.
Ac tually you should have double that amount so you can cycle them, maintain them, have several off line for higher surge capacity and for replacement.
I could see 40 reactors all of the same exact design. configuration and output. You have 15-20 running at any given time. Each has their own little building and containment and cooling system. You also have a central cooling system as backup so at any given time if a cooling system fails or must be maintained, you simply turn a few valves and its running off the main cooling system.
Also in this way, the plant could be brough up to max capacity in 5 year intervals so as each reactor "lifespans" out....it can be replaced with "0" stoppage.
They worked reactors similar to this out at Hanford from what I have read. They were literally mounted on rails inside of small buildings. When they wer done, the doors on both sides opened up, they were scrammed, disconnected and just rolled out of the plant and either defueled or litterally their rail spur ended in a pit and they were buried until they cooled off.
Not always the best method but things were learned.
Its not going to be cost effective or safe to just be dropping individual reactors out in small towns.
Although a more midsized and centralized modular system could be placed to where eventually we COULD get rid of maybe half of the 240,000 miles of high voltage transmission lines we have in the US and just keep enough to ship power from region to region during peak load times.
That level of decentralization alone could probably save the country a vast amount of generating capacity.
By the way, that 10% line loss includes about 5-6% from the high voltage transmission lines and about 5% line losses at the user end. This increases in the transmission lines in hot weather.
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Floating VW
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Joined: April 28, 2015
Posts: 1597
Location: The South Zone
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| Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2024 4:11 pm Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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| KTPhil wrote: |
| The type of reactor on those Navy vessels is ultra safe and reliable. Not enough power for large cities, but in rural areas a small community can be served by one or two at low cost. Makes too much sense for utility companies, though... |
Not nuclear powered, but the USS Lexington was called in to do this very thing back in 1929.
https://navalhistoria.com/tacoma-lexington/
Apparently, about a hundred years ago, Tacoma, Washington was growing fast and pushing the limits of the local power grid, and was overly-dependent on a single source of green energy to supply that power. Then a nasty bit of early 20th-century climate change came out of nowhere, and things went south in a hurry.
Sounds like a cautionary tale, to me.
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Shonandb
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Joined: January 12, 2019
Posts: 1259
Location: Vancouver, BC
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| Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2024 4:03 pm Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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Interesting comments versus actual statistics from this article:
"In certain urban neighbourhoods, it can seem like Tesla Model 3s, Volkswagen ID.4s and Chevy Bolts occupy every third driveway.
Zero-emissions vehicles accounted for nearly 11 per cent of all new motor vehicles registered last year, according to Statistics Canada – the first time they’ve topped one in 10. That’s more than double the 5-per-cent sales threshold after which some experts believe consumer preferences shift and mass-adoption ensues.
Charging a single EV draws as much energy as two average households combined, according to Toronto Hydro. Many observers have warned that rapid EV adoption will cause demand for electricity to surge.
So it might seem surprising that in Canada’s most populous province, Ontario, electricity demand actually declined in 2023 relative to the previous year. And in British Columbia, where adoption has been more rapid, there’s similarly been little impact despite 146,000 EVs hitting the road."
https://www.biv.com/news/transportation/evs-arent-burdening-canadas-electricity-grids-yet-8654661
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heimlich
VWNOS.com
Joined: November 20, 2016
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Location: Houston, Texas
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| Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2024 4:25 pm Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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Why do they still call them zero emissions?
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busdaddy
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| Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2024 4:45 pm Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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| heimlich wrote: |
| Why do they still call them zero emissions? |
Because it makes them feel special and hoity toity, AKA smug.
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