86b & single valve spring possibility?

[DerrickfromNC1]

Close to making a decision on heads for my 2332 weekend driver. I’m looking at either the CB UltraMags, MiniWedges, Wedgeports, or TimmsStage 2s. The cam is a 86b with CB 1.4 rockers. Pushrods are Aircooled.net aluminum and lifters are Porsche 356 39gram.

I’m wondering with this light valvetrain could I run single valve springs. I saw in a previous thread where UK Luke 72 was using single valve spring in a 2276 also with a 86b from Statesidetuning.
Stateside lists their single valve spring at 1.5”*111lbs. and at .550*263lbs. As a comparison the GB237A dual valve springs are list at 280-290lbs at about the same height.
Are there any other single springs….perhaps beehives that fit the prescription. I’m thinking eliminating excessive valve spring pressure means less heat and easy on the valve train. If l’m over thinking this or why fix what ain’t broken let me know!
Also thinking about swapping the 94s for a set of tw 92s to go turbo in the future.

[evanfrucht]

Beehives could work. Ask Dan Ruddock about his. He has 2 different versions/sets for different apps.
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[Clatter]

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[DerrickfromNC1]

Pulled this from an engine build thread:


Alstrup wrote:
Dan Ruddock wrote:
Yes in my opinion, anything more than .430" lift is too much for singles. My spring kit will not work with panchitos if the single groove valves have not been swapped out for stock style three groove valves.

Dan

That depends heavily on the cam profile, lifter, push rod weight and rocker ratio.
Say the above menthioned 218 cam w approx 0,455" lift at the valve. Use lifters in the 70-80 gr. max weight range, quality aluminum pr´s, bolted shafts with stock rockers and some decent elephant feet adjusters. Then couple it to the menthioned Panchito´s with single springs that has 220 lbs @ 1" and installed at approx 1,44" with 140 lbs seat pressure. Such a set up will rev to approx 67-6800 rpm without valve float. By then the engine has stopped pulling long ago. Normal shift range is about 6300 with spirited driving. Set the rev limiter to 6500
Then there is no need what so ever for dual springs. It´s a left over from when Engle cams were dominant.
Same type of set up, but with sgl Oteva S90 springs and a Raptor 008 cam w. 1,4 rockers lifting the valve 0,540" revs to 7 grand without valve float.

My point is, dimension the spring pressure to what you really need with the parts you aree using. by doing that you release more power, get a quieter running engine, reduce wear and reduce heat. Win win in my book.

I don't disagree, Yes they can work well with the right setup, but they just don't last very long has been my experience. Maybe this is because most singles available here in the states are just not very good. The Oteva S90 springs are not readily available here in the states.

This indicates that single Oteva S90 springs with a lightweight valvetrain can perform up to 7000rpm w/o valve float.

[Dan Ruddock]

39 gram 356 lifter? I have an oem 356 lifter and it weighs 71.

Here are the things that are hard on your valve train, too much valve clearance, valve float, geo setup wrong, cams with poorly designed lash ramps (the 86b is not one of them), cutting guide bosses for dual springs can and has caused guides to come loose over time, this is more common when head temps are not kept in check, cam and rocker combos that are just too aggressive, DO NOT REV THE ENGINE BEYOND WHAT THE SPRINGS CAN HANDLE.

Not enough spring will do more damage than too much. If the valve is allowed to slam down on the seat without the cams lash ramps catching it first all kinds of bad thing happen. This is why it is important to have a ridged pushrod, best to sacrifice some added weight for a pushrod that can stop the valve. If the pushrod deflects too much the lash ramps designed into the cam are not as effective at slowing the valve down just before it is set down on the seat. In other words you don't want parts crashing into each other.

Spring harmonics are also a problem. Regular HD single are the worst at this, they have no dampening at all and typically don't last very long, the harder they are worked the shorter the life. When the spring goes into bad harmonics it looses it's ability to control the valve train. Beehives that are progressively wound (not all are) do a much better job at controlling harmonics. Stock VW springs are progressively wound but that does not make them a good performance spring.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHw3mWYgO6M

Dual springs with a good interference fit also do a good job of controlling harmonics but I am not a fan of cutting the heads for duals on a street car. I do like the fact that Clyde Berg does not cut away the guide boss inside the intake port, more support.

My advice, don't be obsessed too much with weight reduction at the cost of other important factors of train design. Yes reducing weight helps but there is no substitute for enough spring and a rev limiter.

Dan

[Dan Ruddock]

Just read your post. Not familiar with and have never used the Oteva spring so I have no comment on them. I would like to see one.

[Dan Ruddock]

Also, lots of lift makes more power to a point but the downside is shorter train life.

[74 Thing]

Tabari stocks the Oteva in the USA
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2504123

[txoval]

You can also run the outer spring of CB 650’s

[clonebug]

I'm running the CB 650 outer springs with 0.511" lift. Not as much duration as a 86B but it has 245 at 0.050".
It's got 4000 miles on the FK-42 and I ran another 5000 miles with a W-100 cam and 1.37 rockers at .524" lift and 236 duration at.050". All with the CB 650 outers only.

Rev limit is usually around 5200 but does see as high as 5800 rpm.
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[fuguboy]

Can the “beehives done right “ be used with 86b/Fk10 with Tims stage2 ? Or would the weekend warrior be a better choice?

[UK Luke 72]

I ran singles on my 86b. Scat lifters, Smith bros pushrods, AA 1.4:1 rockers, 42x37 stainless valves and chromoly retainers. Nothing exotic at all. Installed @1.50" 111lbs @0.550” 263lbs

If memory serves me right I added an inner when I switched to an FK10 though.
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[txoval]

Pretty sure you’ll need the Weekend Warrior versions

[1950split]

For my 2276 I went with Logmech's Oteva 75 sc 1018 dual springs

http://logmech.se/eng/products/engine/valve-accessories/

Spring data art. 1018:
Pre load data art. 1018:
Total length: 58 mm
Outer diameter: 31.6 mm
Inner diameter: 17.3 mm
Solid spring: 21.8 mm
68 kg at 42 mm
81 kg at 39 mm
142 kg at 27 mm
140 kg at 25.4 mm

They work well with the 86b and seems to be a nice product .

[txoval]

Pretty sure you’ll need the Weekend Warrior versions

[Alstrup]

[DerrickfromNC1]

[Dan Ruddock]

[vince1]

I assembled an engine with Comp Cam 26-125 beehive springs, FK44 cam, CB racemaster longer valves. It worked well when the engine was running.

I plan to swap the FK44 to a 86B when I'll finish working in the house, I may just have to add shims under springs.

Engine build can be seen in my signature.
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Click here for my full pix detailed 2165 engine build with beehive valvetrain.

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[challomoner]

I had stateside duals on my 2276 with raptor 008 which is almost same as an 86b. Recently had some work done on the heads and there was evidence of inner spring bounce. Springs were swapped out for something better.