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crankbait09 Samba Member
Joined: October 10, 2016 Posts: 1312 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
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Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2024 6:56 pm Post subject: engine install disaster and now I need a new shroud |
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I have never had so many problems with installing these engines as I have this time around. They usually go in rather easily. For some reason, on my 63, it has taken me 3 hours, and I still failed. I could not figure out what was going on. Reset the engine on the jack numerous times, trying to figure out where I was going wrong. Could get the bottom bolts lined up with the holes in the transmission, but I could not push the top of the engine into place for the life of me. It wasn't hitting the pulley, generator, nothing.........except for those SOB's that are attached to the exhaust, the connector pipes. Those were hitting the underside of the apron and I didn't even think of those being the issue. I looked everywhere. SO I got pissed, tore those effers out just to get the engine into place. Figured I'd put them back in once all said and done. I believe those can be installed with the engine in the vehicle.
got them out of the way, and the two clam shell pieces that those snap into fell apart. So I spent time trying to pry those tabs up that clamp the shell together, that took awhile. it was kinda difficult since those clam shells flop around on the exhaust pipe. got those together, got the engine back into place, and tried wiggling the engine into place.
As I was doing that, the fresh air tube connectors that are on the shroud broke off. The spot welds gave out, and the tin pieces broke. good grief.
during all this, I was using the tail pipes to guide the engine so that it was straight. one of the support brackets on the exhaust, right in front of the tail pipe, broke. well I should say, the spot welds that held it to the pipe came loose. I'm gonna see if my neighbor can do a spot welds on that bracket to make it secure. right now, it runs on the exhaust and screeches, since it's metal on metal.
one thing after another.
Here is a picture of my engine, out of the car. This is how it sits right now. I am after an original shroud to replace the one I have (non dog house). I would prefer to keep it as close to original as I can. Since I have an alternator, and other non original parts to the '63, is there anything I need to be aware of when buying a new one? _________________ 1963 Ragtop |
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crankbait09 Samba Member
Joined: October 10, 2016 Posts: 1312 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
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zerotofifty Samba Member
Joined: December 27, 2003 Posts: 1586
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Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2024 8:35 pm Post subject: Re: engine install disaster and now I need a new shroud |
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I like to remove the aircleaner, distributor cap (or sometime the whole distributor) disconnect the spark plug wires from the plugs, and even sometimes remove the generator pulley and nut. I remove the heater tubes from the tins, and remove the tin breast plate, and remove the carb and throttle cable tube for engine removal and install. I also protect the intake manifold preheater tube ends with masking tape when removing or installing the breast plate tin when in the engine bay.
removal of all that is not 100 needed, but it gives me a bit more working room. I use a floor jack, and place the jack just a bit forward of the oil sump plate, to get the center of gravity fairly balanced, note the flywheel is heavy end.
I dont know what you had removed, but I have found that doing these things can help a lot. some cars with body damage, a replacement apron can be a real bear to work on in regards to engine removal or install.
I just did my clutch not too long ago, then just two weeks ago had to pull the engine again as I found bearing bits in the oil. probably have less than 500 miles between the two engine pulls.
I must say it was a lot easier when I was young.
anyway good luck with a new fan house, If you got a welder friend maybe that heater snoat can be welded back in place? _________________ Give peace a chance. No American war with Russia! |
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Busstom Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2014 Posts: 3856 Location: San Jose, CA
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Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2024 11:27 pm Post subject: Re: engine install disaster and now I need a new shroud |
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Quote: |
...one thing after another... |
I feel your pain man, I hate when shit hangs up and it turns into a battle. Take solace in the fact that your venting here in the open makes the rest of us who encounter this crap feel like we aren't alone.
Like zerotofifty says, it ain't gettin' any easier with time _________________ My name's Steve and it's pronounced "Bust 'em" (cuz people think I'm Tom) 😏 |
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indianpeaksjoe Samba Member
Joined: July 27, 2017 Posts: 340 Location: Moab, UT
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Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2024 6:49 am Post subject: Re: engine install disaster and now I need a new shroud |
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Oh boy, at this point if I have to buy a part and it is cheap enough, I just buy two because I know something is going to go awry.
You are in a safe space _________________ Adventures in owning a 66 beetle |
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Cusser Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006 Posts: 31396 Location: Hot Arizona
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Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2024 7:04 am Post subject: Re: engine install disaster and now I need a new shroud |
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Why can't you pop-rivet the shroud outlet back on? Use some galvanized steel sheeting and paint too? Your engine is nice but not a "show" engine, who would care?
I oftentimes install the engine first, then the exhaust. _________________ 1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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splitjunkie Samba Member
Joined: April 04, 2006 Posts: 4095
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Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2024 7:28 am Post subject: Re: engine install disaster and now I need a new shroud |
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Is your car an early '63 or a late '63?
Early ones were stale air heat and late ones were fresh air heat.
The front lower firewall where the seal mounts was modified when they introduced the fresh air heating system because of the size of the heater boxes on the front (flywheel end) of the engine.
If your car is an early car that someone installed a fresh air engine into, you will have a very difficult time installing your engine without removing the heater boxes.
EDIT: I looked more closely and realized your engine is a 1300/1500/1600. The original was a 1200 40hp which was a narrower engine. installing the engine is going to be a challenge regardless if your '63 was a stale air or fresh air car. If it was a stale air car, it will be harder for sure.
It can be done but will involve a lot more manipulating and cursing to get the engine installed. See my later post to show the changed in the front seal plate shape for the different engines. _________________ Chris
You know, a lot of these scratches will buff right out... Jerry Seinfeld
Last edited by splitjunkie on Thu Mar 28, 2024 10:46 am; edited 2 times in total |
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PWB Samba Member
Joined: September 11, 2019 Posts: 97 Location: PA
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Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2024 7:33 am Post subject: Re: engine install disaster and now I need a new shroud |
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Cusser wrote: |
Why can't you pop-rivet the shroud outlet back on? Use some galvanized steel sheeting and paint too? Your engine is nice but not a "show" engine, who would care?
I oftentimes install the engine first, then the exhaust. |
+1
Yea, just pop rivet the outlet back in place. |
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richparker Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2011 Posts: 6989 Location: Durango, CO
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Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2024 8:00 am Post subject: Re: engine install disaster and now I need a new shroud |
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splitjunkie wrote: |
Is your car an early '63 or a late '63?
Early ones were stale air heat and late ones were fresh air heat.
The front lower firewall where the seal mounts was modified when they introduced the fresh air heating system because of the size of the heater boxes on the front (flywheel end) of the engine.
If your car is an early car that someone installed a fresh air engine into, you will have a very difficult time installing your engine without removing the heater boxes. |
Intresting. I have a 63 and Im thinking about putting a DP 1600 in it. How do I tell if its an early or late car?
X3, fix the shroud and paint it. _________________ __________
71 Westy build
Adventure thread
65 Deluxe Build
63 Deluxe Build |
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DerrickfromNC1 Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2008 Posts: 1302 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2024 9:58 am Post subject: Re: engine install disaster and now I need a new shroud |
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I had to remove and reinstall a loaner engine 3 times over the last 2 months to address numerous oil leaks(3 rear seals, and all pushrod tubes). I found it goes much more smoothly when the car is level(on 4 jackstands). |
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zerotofifty Samba Member
Joined: December 27, 2003 Posts: 1586
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Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2024 10:08 am Post subject: Re: engine install disaster and now I need a new shroud |
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DerrickfromNC1 wrote: |
I had to remove and reinstall a loaner engine 3 times over the last 2 months to address numerous oil leaks(3 rear seals, and all pushrod tubes). I found it goes much more smoothly when the car is level(on 4 jackstands). |
By balancing the engine on the floor jack at its center of gravity, it is easy to tilt the engine to the angle required to match that of a car jacked up by rear end only. I place the jack a bit forward of the center of the sump plate to achieve this. The flywheel is heavy so I place the jack closer to it than to the center of the sump plate.
But yes, getting the angle of engine to car is important, be it a level car and engine or a tilted car and engine. You certainly dont want to fight to tilt the engine, hence correct balance is needed. _________________ Give peace a chance. No American war with Russia! |
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splitjunkie Samba Member
Joined: April 04, 2006 Posts: 4095
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Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2024 10:34 am Post subject: Re: engine install disaster and now I need a new shroud |
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The switchover from stale to fresh air heat was Dec '62
The front seal firewall plate slopes down at the end. Shape is almost circular
36hp
Slightly wider for the 40hp. Ends slope up slightly to clear the slightly larger 40 hp stale air heater boxes but still a gentle circular shape at ends.
'62 40 hp stale air
Slight modification to slope the ends up a small amount to allow clearance for fresh air heater boxes. Last few inches at the ends closer to vertical shape
'65 40hp fresh air
Modified for wider 1300/1500/1600 engine. Ends sloped up further.
1300/1500/1600 fresh air
_________________ Chris
You know, a lot of these scratches will buff right out... Jerry Seinfeld
Last edited by splitjunkie on Thu Mar 28, 2024 10:47 am; edited 2 times in total |
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richparker Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2011 Posts: 6989 Location: Durango, CO
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splitjunkie Samba Member
Joined: April 04, 2006 Posts: 4095
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Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2024 10:46 am Post subject: Re: engine install disaster and now I need a new shroud |
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If you are putting a 1500/1600 engine in a 36hp car the heater boxes pretty much have to come off.
A 40hp stale air car will probably require the same.
A 40hp fresh air car will work, but will be a bit harder than a car that originally had 1300/1500/1600 engine.
I had a '60 which was originally a 36hp car but had a 40hp fresh air engine in it. I had to cut part of the seal plate to get the engine in with the heater boxes installed. It was a major pain to get the engine installed even doing this. I stole the front seal plate out of a '69 and welded it in and all was well. A 40 hp engine slipped right in and a 1300/1500/1600 went in easily as it would have in a '66 or later car. _________________ Chris
You know, a lot of these scratches will buff right out... Jerry Seinfeld |
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Root_Werks Samba Member
Joined: December 31, 2007 Posts: 816 Location: San Juan Islands
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Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2024 1:59 pm Post subject: Re: engine install disaster and now I need a new shroud |
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What used to get me on engine installs was lining up the clutch disc teeth to the output shaft. I'd wrestle with the engine that just refused to go in that last 1/2" even with wrench on pully moving a little back and forth. Finally got the idea to put in gear, set e-brake. Move crank pulley just a little and "thump" in goes the engine.
-Dan _________________ When I set my timing, why do I flush, then take a pee? |
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glutamodo The Android
Joined: July 13, 2004 Posts: 26328 Location: Douglas, WY
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Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2024 2:15 pm Post subject: Re: engine install disaster and now I need a new shroud |
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Root_Werks wrote: |
What used to get me on engine installs was lining up the clutch disc teeth to the output shaft. I'd wrestle with the engine that just refused to go in that last 1/2" even with wrench on pully moving a little back and forth. Finally got the idea to put in gear, set e-brake. Move crank pulley just a little and "thump" in goes the engine.
-Dan |
Um, isn't this in some manual or other? I'm sure I've seen it in print before. And it's something I've been aware of for quite a long time. _________________ Andy T.
IMAGE NOTE: It has been noted that Chrome based browsers may have issues in displaying my vast image library, which use non-secure links and are on an FTP server. Images should still be viewable if the link is clicked though.
I do not know how to fix this. All I can say is it all works fine for me with what I use, Firefox. |
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rcooled Samba Member
Joined: September 20, 2008 Posts: 2510 Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2024 3:20 pm Post subject: Re: engine install disaster and now I need a new shroud |
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splitjunkie wrote: |
It can be done but will involve a lot more manipulating and cursing to get the engine installed. |
In order to remove/install a 1600DP into my fresh-air '63, and to avoid driving myself crazy in the process, I took the engine lid off and rotated the two hinge brackets to the side. I also removed the shroud and alternator as a unit, the carb & manifold, distributor, cylinder tins, breastplate, heater boxes and muffler from the engine. With the lid out of the way, all of this stuff can be re-installed once the engine's back in the car.
My biggest problem was that the rear corners of the cylinder tins would contact the back of the engine bay, thus keeping the engine from being pulled back far enough to allow the lower mounting studs to clear the holes in the transaxle.
You may not want to/have to go to all this trouble, but at least removing the heater boxes and muffler will make removing/installing the engine quite a bit easier. _________________ '63 Ragtop (current)
'65 Ghia coupe (totaled)
'67 Ghia convertible (current)
'69.5 Ghia convertible and
'62, '63, '65, '69 Bugs (all long gone) |
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Root_Werks Samba Member
Joined: December 31, 2007 Posts: 816 Location: San Juan Islands
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Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2024 4:05 pm Post subject: Re: engine install disaster and now I need a new shroud |
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glutamodo wrote: |
Root_Werks wrote: |
What used to get me on engine installs was lining up the clutch disc teeth to the output shaft. I'd wrestle with the engine that just refused to go in that last 1/2" even with wrench on pully moving a little back and forth. Finally got the idea to put in gear, set e-brake. Move crank pulley just a little and "thump" in goes the engine.
-Dan |
Um, isn't this in some manual or other? I'm sure I've seen it in print before. And it's something I've been aware of for quite a long time. |
I'm certain it is, my discovery of the technique was 35+ years ago when my teenage self thought I knew more than the average bear. Just sharing an experience.
_________________ When I set my timing, why do I flush, then take a pee? |
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Eric&Barb Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2004 Posts: 24774 Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2024 4:23 pm Post subject: Re: engine install disaster and now I need a new shroud |
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splitjunkie wrote: |
A 40hp stale air car will probably require the same. |
Thankfully not. For the beetle since start of 1961 model year (AUG1959) the 40 HP tin is same outside width and curves as the 1300/1500/1600 engines.
Only the bus got the misnamed Bastard 40 HP engine in MAY1959. That is really a 36HP engine, but has many of the 40 HP engine improvements like separate gen stand, same outer tin shape as all 40 HP and 1300/1500/1600 carbed upright engines, longer crankshaft and thusly longer engine case etc.. It was found that the Bastard 40 HP engine was fatally flawed so that the crankshaft broke around 30,000 miles! So was recalled and never installed in production type 1 VWs.
We have a DEC1959 built 1960 model walk thru panel bus that originally had one of those Bastard 40 HP engines from the factory. Installed a few fresh air 40HP and now have a 1641 SP engine with no heat exchanger fuss.
One problem with installing an engine that is not in any of the manuals is that if one has to do so on uneven ground is to make sure the nose of the VW is downhill when doing so. Trying to install an engine up even the slightest hill is a real bear. _________________ In Stereo, Where Available! |
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