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MsTaboo
Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2006
Posts: 4103
Location: East Kootenay, British Columbia
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 Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2024 2:11 pm Post subject: Re: from the ashes |
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| markswagen wrote: |
they made the mess, the radiator was only a couple of years old, they cut the rear of the van, the flames coming out the vents led them down there.
l have no idea why they went in the front, but they destroyed the radiator while they were there  |
Maybe they thought the engine was up front?  
I meant to add in my post that our very first Vanagon was a white '90 Carat. Loved that rig; I can understand why it was your wife's favorite. Still the best road driving VW bus I've owned, with it's low profile, light weight and with jump seats and queen sized futon built right in!
We camped all over the West in that thing. Always wanted a pop-top though and bought a Multivan (a close second), however it wasn't in the best of condition and of course the Syncro Westy is still the tops for our style of camping.
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Currently:
'90 Syncro Westy 3 knob w/Zetec
The information age has morphed into the age of disinformation and willful ignorance. Agnotology!
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dobryan
Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2006
Posts: 16515
Location: Brookeville, MD
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| Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2024 5:44 am Post subject: Re: from the ashes |
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I had my '87 westy go up in flames in 2006 from an engine fire.
I was actually able to fight the fire for a minute or so with the extinguisher but it would reignite because the wiring on top of the engine from the alternator was melted and sparking and providing an ignition source. When the extinguisher was done I had to back away and let it burn. I do not know what originally started the fire since by the time I got to fighting it the fire was too generalized to know.
And now all my buses have a battery disconnect switch on the passenger seat pillar that is accessible from the drivers seat. In the event of a fire or any electrical short issue I can cut the negative feed from the battery in a matter of seconds. That likely would have saved my bus...
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Dave O
'87 Westy w/ 2002 Subaru EJ25 and Peloquin TBD
"To travel hopefully is a better thing than to arrive." Robert Louis Stevenson
MD>Canada>AK>WA>OR>CA>AZ>UT>WY>SD
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=620646
Building a bus for travel in Europe (euroBus)
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=695371
The Western Syncro build
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=746794 |
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4Gears4Tires
Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2018
Posts: 3084
Location: MD
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| Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2024 6:44 am Post subject: Re: from the ashes |
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Wow, that's disappointing to hear you had a blazecut in there and it didn't do much. I think a lot of us have put a lot of faith in them. 
The battery disconnect sounds like a good idea.
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'87 Syncro
Ferric Oxyhydroxide Superleggera Edition |
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elizer 
Samba Member
Joined: May 02, 2016
Posts: 1474
Location: Northern Virginia
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| Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2024 6:46 am Post subject: Re: from the ashes |
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I carry element extinguishers, but I have a tdi. I was curious. For a gas engine fire and you can't get the lid off. How effective it would be to spray the element from below and upwards (assuming engine off/battery cutoff)?
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91 syncro westy fas tdi |
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4Gears4Tires
Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2018
Posts: 3084
Location: MD
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| Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2024 6:49 am Post subject: Re: from the ashes |
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I also carry a fire extinguisher, I was thinking that spraying in from the license plate might be the easiest way to get at the top of the motor. But if flames are already popping out, it's going to be hot metal.
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'87 Syncro
Ferric Oxyhydroxide Superleggera Edition |
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E1
Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2013
Posts: 6652
Location: Westfalia, Earth
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| Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2024 7:35 am Post subject: Re: from the ashes |
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We have nothing but pillows atop the engine cover for this very reason.
The plastic fuel rail thought is sound, and we have the RMW rails.
And yeah, if the key is on, the fuel just keeps pumping on, not that that happened in your case.
It seems opening the hatch in a larger fire is a bad idea though, and probably gets more air to the fire — hence my onboard extinguisher thoughts. I’d bet a Blazecut would help IF fuel wasn’t pouring onto the headers. I do know that wrapping our headers dropped their temps well over 100 degrees, header temps being the enemy here if fed by fuel, I think.
Thanks again for the open dialog.
| markswagen wrote: |
Eric, l honestly don't think anything you have on board with you currently would do any good, those elements may, but if you have anything over the top of the engine compartment, the time it would take to get that stuff out of the way, would give the fire long enough to take a proper hold, then there's the noticing the fire in the first place, my wife didn't notice, she was in traffic, a car behind her saw the flames coming out, she had no idea.
l've looked at those race car systems in the past, maybe a 5lb bottle would do it, a 10lb l would hope would, but where do you put them.
l think prevention is better.
someone posted up there, that likely it would have been the plastic manifolds that the injectors plug into, thinking about that, l agree, so l have just ordered two pairs of the aluminum ones from RMW, one for the engine in her new van, and one for burni, ALL the stock plastic manifolds, will be going in the trash next time l go out to my garage, l likely have more than a dozen pairs.
| E1 wrote: |
I really hate this thread, because Mark is such an absolutely awesome guy.
I kinda thought we may start discussing prevention. I hesitated to, "after the fact," but since others have it's probably a good discussion for all readers, so...
We have:
— A Blazecut
— A stock-sized extinguisher
— A stove fire bottle
— Two Element 100s
Honestly? I've been too lax on this horror. Ignorance is Bliss... until it isn't, and it could happen to any of us.
One of my goals, had we been racing as planned, was to work with an onboard fire extinguisher manufacturer, as is standard fare in race cars.
If anyone wants to collaborate on enticing a manufacturer to design a Vanagon-specific system, complete with a cockpit trigger button, let's discuss more seriously. It's easy to post about, but the concept really should be looked into much more seriously.
I know one of the owners of the Element system a little, from racing (he owns a former Greg Moore car, a late comrade of mine), and am enticing him into our thinking more about all this... that system is very interesting in that, to my limited understanding, it deprives the fire of oxygen.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdWZmsRwQ94
After surviving a total-loss barrel rollover off a cliff, two tranny rebuilds on two buses, and an engine swap, all while living in these things, fire just freaks me into absolute, ignorant submission. I can barely even think of it.
So Sorry Mark, despite your great recovery stance.  |
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‘84 Westy, 2.1L with Digijet, 5.43 R+P, GT Gears
"Adding power makes you faster on the straights.
Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere."
— Colin Chapman |
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DanHoug
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Joined: December 05, 2016
Posts: 4814
Location: Bemidji, MN
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| Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2024 8:13 am Post subject: Re: from the ashes |
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the racing fire suppression systems using a CO2 cartridge and AFFF, Aqueous Film Forming Foam would be perfect for persistent extinguishing and you can get a manual trigger one for under $450. but alas, they cannot withstand freezing being aqueous and all!
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-dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.
'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd
Past projects can be found at--
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E1
Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2013
Posts: 6652
Location: Westfalia, Earth
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| Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2024 8:21 am Post subject: Re: from the ashes |
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Good info Dan, Thanks.
We personally never see much below 30, but that’s a dealbreaker for most. It also makes me wonder what other systems are used in below-freezing environments.
The comment above about replacing the engine cover foam is interesting, too. While there may be no magic bullet here, perhaps several mitigation factors could help.
I may still discuss this with Element, and in especially having a larger unit, or mounted units accessible from below.
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‘84 Westy, 2.1L with Digijet, 5.43 R+P, GT Gears
"Adding power makes you faster on the straights.
Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere."
— Colin Chapman |
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mtnhome
Samba Member
Joined: July 17, 2010
Posts: 505
Location: Summit County, CO
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| Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2024 8:31 am Post subject: Re: from the ashes |
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I hate to see these threads!
I'm going to add a ground disconnect like Dave O'Bryan. I carry both Element and Halon fire extinguishers. Another thing I did was put a check valve in the fuel return line. Hopefully this will keep the tank from feeding a fire that has melted through the fuel return line.
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'84 Westy, '93 Subaru ej22 and Subarugears 5speed
Build thread: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=763098&highlight= |
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markswagen
Samba Member
Joined: January 28, 2018
Posts: 1041
Location: san diego
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| Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2024 8:40 am Post subject: Re: from the ashes |
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there was a kill switch in the van, unfortunately, she didn't think about it.
l don't think aiming an element extinguisher up from under the van would be any use.
as for blazecuts, pointless IMHO, extremely disappointing, l've recommended them to countless customers, who have gone out and bought them.
l feel bad that l may have given them a false hope that one may save their van.
l like to try most things on my vehicles first, the blazecut, l'm kind of glad that it happened to us first, l have contacted a good amount of my customers who have bought them upon my recommendation, and shown them the pictures, to let them know l made a mistake, not that l'm willing to cover the cost of those blazecuts, l'm out enough $ already.
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markswagen {mobile mechanic} san diego area all early VW's cared for.
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E1
Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2013
Posts: 6652
Location: Westfalia, Earth
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| Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2024 9:07 am Post subject: Re: from the ashes |
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Endless respect for your honoring your customers…
A Blazecut would probably be enough for most fires — unless fueled by gas. It’s a one shot deal and certainly better than nothing in simpler cases.
*Everybody* reading this should replace the old plastic fuel rails. On that, your open statements here have already more than made up for any Blazecut recommendations.
Am I right that turning the key off stops the fuel pump just like an ignition cutoff would have?
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‘84 Westy, 2.1L with Digijet, 5.43 R+P, GT Gears
"Adding power makes you faster on the straights.
Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere."
— Colin Chapman |
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RoryGirl
Samba Member
Joined: October 14, 2016
Posts: 791
Location: WestWorld Nanaimo BC
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| Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2024 11:03 am Post subject: Re: from the ashes |
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| Maybe a 3D printed port on the rear somewhere so you can just jam the extinguisher nozzle in? |
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4Gears4Tires
Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2018
Posts: 3084
Location: MD
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| Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2024 11:10 am Post subject: Re: from the ashes |
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| markswagen wrote: |
| l feel bad that l may have given them a false hope that one may save their van. |
It's better than nothing and may save a van or two. Don't feel too bad. I don't regret buying it and I'm still glad I have it. I just know now that I can't solely rely on it.
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'87 Syncro
Ferric Oxyhydroxide Superleggera Edition |
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DanHoug
Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2016
Posts: 4814
Location: Bemidji, MN
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| Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2024 11:28 am Post subject: Re: from the ashes |
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| E1 wrote: |
| Am I right that turning the key off stops the fuel pump just like an ignition cutoff would have? |
the ECU closes the fuel pump relay based on a signal from the Hall Sensor in the distributor. if the dist isn't turning, the pump stops other than the prime sequence with initial key on.
i'm not convinced the old plastic fuel manifolds are a problem. they need to be inspected for leakage, the end seal facing the rear facilitates that. but how many have actually let loose and sprayed gasoline? dunno. many of the aluminum aftermarket 'solutions' leaked in and of themselves from threads cut in shallow stock. most of the makers have figured that out now.
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-dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.
'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd
Past projects can be found at--
www.thefixitworkshop.com |
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E1
Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2013
Posts: 6652
Location: Westfalia, Earth
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| Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2024 11:32 am Post subject: Re: from the ashes |
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This thread more and more supports my standard comeback to live statements of admiration:
“Best camping rig ever — when it’s parked.”
_________________
‘84 Westy, 2.1L with Digijet, 5.43 R+P, GT Gears
"Adding power makes you faster on the straights.
Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere."
— Colin Chapman |
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Run8Stud
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Joined: June 28, 2022
Posts: 76
Location: San Diego, CA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2024 11:55 am Post subject: Re: from the ashes |
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DanHoug, last year I was noticing some gas smell from the engine on my '87, but couldn't figure out exactly from where. Thankfully I eventually saw it one day after turning on the key and letting the system pressurize, and I was watching it seep out of the body of one of the plastic fuel rails. Had it gone much longer, that crack would have opened up further and started spraying.
(Edit) I had a hard time spotting it before because the seep was slow enough and the engine bay warm enough it would evaporate right away.
I bought the GW aluminum rails very quickly.
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John G. - 1987 Westy 2.1 5-Speed |
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DanHoug
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Joined: December 05, 2016
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Location: Bemidji, MN
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| Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2024 11:58 am Post subject: Re: from the ashes |
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| Run8Stud wrote: |
DanHoug, last year I was noticing some gas smell from the engine on my '87, but couldn't figure out exactly from where. Thankfully I eventually saw it one day after turning on the key and letting the system pressurize, and I was watching it seep out of the body of one of the plastic fuel rails. Had it gone much longer, that crack would have opened up further and started spraying.
I bought the GW aluminum rails very quickly. |
thanks for that feedback! first confirmed failure i can remember (that's my legalese out for maybe seeing one before!)
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-dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.
'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd
Past projects can be found at--
www.thefixitworkshop.com |
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markswagen
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Joined: January 28, 2018
Posts: 1041
Location: san diego
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| Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2024 6:34 pm Post subject: Re: from the ashes |
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bit of a slow start today, but the 5 speed is out.
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djkeev
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markswagen
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Joined: January 28, 2018
Posts: 1041
Location: san diego
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| Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2024 7:25 pm Post subject: Re: from the ashes |
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a little more progress from today, so, the plastic cover didn't melt into a puddle, you can still mostly read the blazecut sticker on there.
the mess, most of which went up the vacuum cleaner, l'm not looking forward to cleaning that out.
engine and trans out.
l will replace the seals in the torque converter, and that l hope should be all it needs, no water came out.
l will drop the pan and clean out any debris that may have gone down the dipstick tube, everything had already been shut down before the fired dept got there, so there shouldn't be any trash in there.
and gone.
l removed the dash, dash cluster, BMW brake booster, new master cylinder, brake pedal assembly.
the shift linkage.
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markswagen {mobile mechanic} san diego area all early VW's cared for.
619 201 0310 |
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