Alignment specs and advice

[dan macmillan]

A fellow Samba member sent me a help request about alignments. As I think this will help out others I have decided to post some of my reply to him on the Samba. He drives a 71 Westy
I hold multiple automobile repair licenses and have been doing alignments for 18 years.


The alignment centers DID NOT provide a printout save for a printed bill! I am
in deep south easternAlabama and not many people here REALLY know VW,s and
Buses( although they might say they do) I have moved the tires around a bit, I
will try the right to left.The roads here are both good and bad, from smooth
recently paved to baked shell/blacktop with the aforementioned crown. could look
up some of the better VW folks in Fla, and see about the rear situtation. Thank
You for your time .




Knowledge of VW should have no effect on the outcome of your alignment. Knowledge of what alignment is all about and how to manipulate the values and angles to end up with a vehicle that tracks strait with a level steering wheel and not wear tires is what is needed. Seek out a professional garage that offers total 4 wheel alignment and has up to date equipment capable of measuring all 4 wheels at the same time. All of the computer aligners manufactured in the last 15 years have the capability of printing a before and after report as well as the specs they are trying to acheive.

On any rear wheel drive when the roads are flat from side to side you want the camber on the left front to be equal to the right front camber, the same goes for caster. Same value on both sides. As road crown increases, road is higher in the center so water can drain off then you want the left camber to be slightly higher than the right. As Camber pulls to the higher value. {think of a road grader with the wheels tilted to the left. the left wheel has high pos camber while the right has high negative camber} Caster on the left should be lower than caster on the right. As caster pulls to the low side. Since the beam is solid and you cannot change left caster in relation to right by shimming the beam then any change will have to be made using the ball joint cams. Trading off a bit of Camber to meet the caster requirements.
In northern Ontario Canada, our roads have a fair amount of road crown. As a result the left camber is set .25 to .3 degrees higher than the right while caster is .6 to .7 degrees lower on the left than the right. THese are your cross camber and cross caster values. Toe gets set to 1/8 inch toe in. Rear wheels should be the same left to right and Thrust angle should read 0.0

Here are the specs for your vehicle TYPE 2 TRANSPORTER 1968-79
Camber .67 +/- .33 deg
Caster 3.0 +/- .67 deg
Cross Camber .67 deg
Front toe 1/8 inch
Rear Camber -.83 +/- .5 deg
Rear Toe 3/32 inch
Wherever you go demand a BEFORE AND AFTER printout of your alignment.
Hope this helps

For those that need specs.
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h58/davidsigouin/alignment/Untitled3.jpg

Most of the rest of the VW aircooled lineup and early liquids are found here
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=206764
_________________
Licensed Automotive Service Technician
Licensed Truck and Coach Technician
Licensed Heavy Duty Equipment Technician
CFC/HCFC/HFC A/C handling and installation license
Alignment specialist
66 Modified Manx,68 Kyote,74 Thing,74 Beetle, 76 Transporter,75 self made Double Cab,65 Meyers Manx,78Westy,68 Ghia, 79 Bradley GT2
Current projects:
Built for others:69 Manx Clone

[germansupplyscott]

dan,

how do you adjust caster on a type 2 front end? i mean, any adjustment of the caster will affect the camber and vice versa, so if the camber is correct, but caster is not, what do you do?
_________________
SL

[dan macmillan]

As I mentioned that since the beam is solid the beam cannot be used to affect cross caster or any caster for that matter. This also applies to Beetles but in a Beetle you can change caster but not cross caster. The only way to affect cross caster in a Bug or Bus with ball joints is by turning the upper ball joint cams {camber cams}. You trade off some camber and it goes into caster.
It is a compromise. Caster is your main "pulling" angle. Camber will pull but not as hard as caster so if need be you give up some camber in trade for caster.

I don't know if different value cams were offered. It is the same adjustment method for Ford F and E series trucks and vans.
_________________
Licensed Automotive Service Technician
Licensed Truck and Coach Technician
Licensed Heavy Duty Equipment Technician
CFC/HCFC/HFC A/C handling and installation license
Alignment specialist
66 Modified Manx,68 Kyote,74 Thing,74 Beetle, 76 Transporter,75 self made Double Cab,65 Meyers Manx,78Westy,68 Ghia, 79 Bradley GT2
Current projects:
Built for others:69 Manx Clone

[Desertbusman]

Very interesting and informative information.
Although I'm curious where these specs came from. Who came up with them? Just at a quick glance the specs for front wheel toe are different than VW published specs. A fair amount different.
_________________
71 Superbug
71 Westy

[dan macmillan]

[Desertbusman]

15' +/- 15' total or 0.0 to 3.3 mm total. or 0" to 1/8" total
_________________
71 Superbug
71 Westy

[obieoberstar]

Great Post Dan.

let me bounce this off of you. my 79 westy has a RT/R camber and toe problem. 11' toe-in and -1 45' camber. have been chasing my tail on this one for a while. the only time it came into spec was after adjusting the spring plates. but after a few weeks it was back to usual. did not have replacement bushings at the time. but i did see some wear on the outer round end of the spring plate where it was rubbing on the cover plate. the left side was normal.

i do have replacement bushings now and plan on doing them next weekend. do you think i might have a bigger problem than just worn bushings?

also, what effect would this condition have on straight line tracking. i've replaced everything except for the bushings over the last 3 years. just doesn't feel or drive as well as my old 71 with worn out everything.

[dan macmillan]

[504]

Anyone who knows alignments-

I just got a computerized alignment on my '77 westy and they gave me a before and after. I just replaced all of the front suspension/steering components except the steering box. I don't know too much about the topic, but when I tried to give the guy the specs i wanted, he said they were in the computer.
Everything was in spec except for the camber, which is 0.2 left and 0.1 right. Specs read .67 +/- .33. I brought this up, and he said that what specs are and what it needs to be set at aren't necessarily the same thing. He said to take it for a drive and see how it feels and let him know if there are any problems.
Does this sound reasonable? The values did not change before and after the alignment.

On a separate topic, I noticed that my steering wheel is on straight, and before the alignment it was not on straight. I doubt he pulled the steering wheel, and my steering box was centered before I brought it in. Is there any reason he would have pulled the drag link to mess with this? Is it possible he messed with my steering box for an alignment? This is a pretty reputable shop specializing in german cars.

It stormed when I dropped the bus off and I didn't get a chance to look. It will be saturday before I can go look and next week before I can bring it back. I don't want to wait too long in case any of these things are issues I need to deal with.

[SGKent]

alignment shops are all different. You are at their mercy if you don't understand what they are doing. That is why you go by reputation and not price. Drive your bus for 300 to 1000 miles and watch the wear. If it is even then he did a good job.
_________________
George Carlin:
"Most people don't know what they're doing, and a lot of them are really good at it."

Skills@EuroCarsPlus:
"never time to do it right but always time to do it twice"

[BusterBrown]

For what it's worth; I had the same experience with a recent front end alignment on my 2005 Hyundai, at our local Big O tire store. I've used them for 15 years now, and have found them to be reliable. When I picked the car up after the alignment was done, I noticed the spec sheet showed they aligned it differently than what the specs showed. I asked about it, and got the same answer you did; "That's what the car needed in this case, to be in alignment".

Perhaps someone else can confirm this response?

Along with Steve's response about watching tire wear, check and see how the bus goes down the road; does it want to veer right or left, or does it seem to mostly want to go straight down the road?
_________________
1978 Sage Green Westfalia (Happy Trails, SOLD)
1977 Transporter

Life is short. Can I have some of yours?

[504]

It drives straight, but it drove straight on the way there too, and I know it was off since I just eyeballed everything. New, stiff balljoints and everything else may keep it in a straight line easier I guess.
I just don't know anything about alignments, and I went to the place that I felt would do the best job. I don't understand how vw's specs would be incorrect, but they didn't use computers back then to align. I am sure bus owners are among the only people who would bring their own specs to the alignment shop, so most cars are rolling around on the shop's version of aligned.

[SGKent]

vw's specs are actually more precise than many older shops can handle. Their tools are in 1 degree bubble changes although they can do inbetween for about 1/2 degree.

Also many shops with electronic equiptment are fitted for later cars and won't mess with anything more than toe if the alignment is close because many new cars don't have adjustments for camber or caster. I've watched before and after numbers change on their printouts for caster and camber from way out to near perfect when all they did was change the toe from 1/16" to 1/8". you can get a camber or caster change just by pushing up on a bumper a little and letting go.

It is like balancing tires. Next time someone balances a tire for you on a machine that spins them, when they are done before they take it off, ask them to rotate it 90 degrees on the machine and spin it again - if it doesn't come up 0000's again then their machine needs calibration.
_________________
George Carlin:
"Most people don't know what they're doing, and a lot of them are really good at it."

Skills@EuroCarsPlus:
"never time to do it right but always time to do it twice"

[Wildthings]

Camber and toe in specs are interrelated. If you don't run your camber to the factory spec then as a rule, the toe shouldn't be run at the factory spec either. I have never tried to run a Bay at anything other than factory camber so I have no idea what kind of affect running something different would have on handling, especially getting blown around in the wind. Maybe you will find it handles better, if it does let us know.

I am guessing that your shop tried to give you a little extra caster by decreasing the camber a bit. Might be good, might not. It is important that the two sides be very close to the same as, if not, it will pull to one side or the other.

All the alignment shop needed to do to center the steering wheel is adjust the length of the drag link, that is why it is adjustable.

It is very easy to align the front end of a bay using just a tape measure, a torpedo level, and a homemade 2x4 jig. I also use a 4' level to make sure the vehicle is on a dead level surface. Takes less time to DIY than just dropping a car off at the alignment shop does. The DIY info in the Bentley will work just fine.

[504]

Unfortunately the only thing I have to compare it to is the condition I got the bus in - bad shocks, way far gone ball joints, and worn everything else, with tons of freeplay and no control.
To me it feels great.

[Desertbusman]

I think it's good to discuss the specs. before the job is done. The shop I went to was highly recommended so that wasn't the concern. But their specs and Bentleys were a bit different so we both agreed on the numbers that would satisfy both specs. Simple and they did meet the specs real great.
Your steering wheel issue is a different story. Particularly if you are sure the box itself was centered before. Evidently they have messed it up now. Don't be surprised as many people here don't understand either and screw it up. What may have happened is your bus incorrectly has 2 adjustable tie rods. And when they adjusted the toe they messed up the centering. Originally and also now it should have one fixed length and one adjustable tie rod. The the fixed rod establishes the relationship between the one wheel and the positioning of the relay lever. Then with the box centered the drag link is adjusted. And toe adjustment then is only adjusting the one adjustable tie rod to bring the other wheel into spec. With two adjustable tie rods it can be done correctly if both tie rods end up exactly the very same length. Which is what you really end up with when one non adjustable and one adjustable tie rod is used.
So I'd carefully measure yours and see if they are the same length pin to pin. If not I'd take it back and have them readjust the toe. The main thing is that the steering box is centered. Maybe they did it to center the steering wheel and is bad. It might end up ruining the box.
_________________
71 Superbug
71 Westy

[SGKent]

if the steering wheel was centered on the box then the tight spot in the steering would be exactly when the STEERING WHEEL was correct and even. If the drag link was off at that point the steering wheel would not be centered when the bus was going straight ahead. If they adjusted the drag link so that the steering wheel and box are centered on the tight spot when the bus is going straight ahead then they did the correct thing.

However - if before you took it in you had the steering gear and drag link set up so the steering gear was centered when the bus was going straight ahead but the steering wheel was off because someone did not put it on straight, then you need to start over and make sure the Steering wheel is straight when the steering box is in the center which is the tight spot.

The first step is finding the center of the steering. Do not rely on the rubber pointer unless you know it is centered as it can be turned. With a find torque wrench that reads inch pounds you have to measure where the drag is equal from both sides of center and then split the distance.
_________________
George Carlin:
"Most people don't know what they're doing, and a lot of them are really good at it."

Skills@EuroCarsPlus:
"never time to do it right but always time to do it twice"

[Desertbusman]

[504]

Yes, I had centered the box, but I relied on the lug on the rubber dust cover, and I ignored the steering wheel position. And I do have only one adjustable tie rod. i will have to call the guy and see what he did to address the steering wheel and/or box.
If he did remove the drag link and the box is off center, can I fix it without bringing it in to be realigned? I must have missed something in Bentley about centering the box because I read only to align the arrow and the lug on the dust cover. I read other stuff here, but I thought it applied to early boxes only.

[Desertbusman]

You've got more homework to do before going back to the aliggnment shop.

Like SG has said DO NOT use the rubber indicator on the top of the box to center it. They are old rubber and can easily slip to different positions and someone monkeying with it can put it on wrong. You have to find the center point not by the indicator mark but rather by the previous mentioned methods. Also included in that process is adjusting the tightness of the steering gear per Bentley if needed. Where you are now is that the only way you will know the situation is to disconnect the front of the drag link from the pitman arm. Study the Bentley again. After you get that determined and re-adjust the drag link (if needed) to know that the box is centered while you are driving exactly straight ahead then you can reposition the steering wheel if needed. I'd recommend not doing the steering wheel until after you are sure the alignment is all good to go.

With the one non-adjustable tie rod you are in good shape with the rest of the geometry. Form the readout the shop gave you are the toe readings within the specs in the Bentley?

Here's the deal- There is only one spot in the steering box where there is no play and slop. That spot has to be when you are driving straight ahead. A very short ways on either side of that snug spot the gear clearance gets progressivly looser. When driving the only time the box is in the loose position is when you are in turns. If the snug spot isn't there when driving straight ahead there will be looseness in your steering and it will also beat out the gears.
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71 Superbug
71 Westy