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Mr. Fickits
Samba Member
Joined: August 16, 2005
Posts: 94
Location: Reno,NV
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 Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 8:34 am Post subject: Engine running too cool? |
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Recently finished my 1904cc build and got it in the car. Runs great but the oil and heads just aren't getting up to operating temp. Should I be concerned? The jetting is close (not perfect yet). timing is 10/30 with the 009. Engine specs below.
1904cc 74 x 90.5 balanced
Aluminum super case
043 heads 40 x 35 p&p
52cc chambers, mirror polish
.038 decks
9.2:1
running 91 octane
26mm Schadek full flow'd
Gibbs HR1 15w50 conventional oil
dual Weber 44idfs
1-5/8 stainless sidewinder exhaust
compufire ignition
I cannot get the oil over 180F degrees and heads over 250F. I have had the VDO senders and gauges for a while and have worked is the past. The CHT sender is under #3 spark plug, the temp sender is at the rear pressure relief in the case. |
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[email protected]
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2002
Posts: 12785
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
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| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 8:36 am Post subject: Re: Engine running too cool? |
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what is your carb jetting? Do you have an aux oil cooler? T_stat and flaps?
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vugbug68
Samba Member
Joined: June 25, 2006
Posts: 2696
Location: sacramento
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| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 9:10 am Post subject: |
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I think the carbs and exhaust are a bit too big. What cam are you running?
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71 Super - Backroad Thrasher
66 Corvair - Weekend Cruiser
90 4 Runner - Muddin |
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Mr. Fickits
Samba Member
Joined: August 16, 2005
Posts: 94
Location: Reno,NV
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| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 9:30 am Post subject: Re: Engine running too cool? |
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| [email protected] wrote: |
| what is your carb jetting? Do you have an aux oil cooler? T_stat and flaps? |
Hi John,
50 idles/135 mains/ F11s/200 airs. Dog house cooler only. No t_stat or flaps.
| vugbug68 wrote: |
| I think the carbs and exhaust are a bit too big. What cam are you running? |
Cam is Engle W110. |
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75smith
Samba Member
Joined: July 09, 2011
Posts: 2275
Location: NH
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| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 10:06 am Post subject: |
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have you verified gauges with boiling water? sometimes gauges are just good for keeping an eye on irregularities rather then actual temps
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My 1975 Beetle Build Updated 8-21-12
My engine build |
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Mr. Fickits
Samba Member
Joined: August 16, 2005
Posts: 94
Location: Reno,NV
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| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 10:10 am Post subject: |
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| 75smith wrote: |
| have you verified gauges with boiling water? sometimes gauges are just good for keeping an eye on irregularities rather then actual temps |
That's a good idea. I have not done that test. I do have a handheld laser thermometer and the numbers are close within 10 degrees.
Thanks |
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Max Welton
Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2003
Posts: 10697
Location: Black Forest, CO
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SBD
Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2012
Posts: 3269
Location: SOUTH DAKOTA
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| Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 8:14 am Post subject: Re: Engine running too cool? |
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| Mr. Fickits wrote: |
| Runs great but the oil and heads just aren't getting up to operating temp. |
| Mr. Fickits wrote: |
| No t_stat or flaps. |
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[email protected]
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2002
Posts: 12785
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
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| Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 8:50 am Post subject: Re: Engine running too cool? |
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Even if it's 100F out the engine will be too cool if you don't have the flaps and T-stat on there.
_________________
It's just advice, do whatever you want with it!
Please do NOT send me Private Messages through the Samba PM System (I will not see them). Send me an e-mail to john at aircooled dot net
"Like" our Facebook page at
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Mr. Fickits
Samba Member
Joined: August 16, 2005
Posts: 94
Location: Reno,NV
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| Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:37 am Post subject: |
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| Ok. I'll have to pick those up and install. The car is a 62 and had the original 1200cc engine and sheetmetal. I used most of that sheetmetal on the new motor. I did replace the shroud with a 36hp doghouse without heat. Thanks for the help guys! |
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vugbug68
Samba Member
Joined: June 25, 2006
Posts: 2696
Location: sacramento
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| Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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Have you taken the car on the freeway for a while? pulled any hills? Thermostat and flaps will help warm up the engine quicker but it still should get nice and hot without them
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71 Super - Backroad Thrasher
66 Corvair - Weekend Cruiser
90 4 Runner - Muddin |
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[email protected]
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2002
Posts: 12785
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
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| Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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Perspective.
The VW cooling system is capable of roughly 80-90hp of engine output, before the cooing system isn't enough. If you are driving around using 20hp, the engine is no where near "hot", if you don't have the flaps and T-stat. This is why they are needed, to get the engine temps up where the engine runs best. And it's self regulating. The second you remove them you are running 90hp worth of cooling system on an engine that is using far less, unless you are driving around with the gas pedal to the floor, and regulating your speed with the brake pedal.
_________________
It's just advice, do whatever you want with it!
Please do NOT send me Private Messages through the Samba PM System (I will not see them). Send me an e-mail to john at aircooled dot net
"Like" our Facebook page at
http://www.facebook.com/vwpartsaircoolednet
and get a 5% off code for use on one order for VW Parts ON OUR PARTS STORE WEBSITE, vwparts.aircooled.net |
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sambabus
Samba Member
Joined: December 02, 2009
Posts: 324
Location: N. Cal
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| Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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I thought the stock cooling system was only good for 40-50 hp continuous? For example, on the freeway, I have been able to get a stock 1600 hot. That motor only makes 50-60 hp on a good day. And why do so many stock motors get baked?
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1971 Westy, 2017cc 78.4 x 90.5 Tims Stage 1 plus 42x37, CB 44IDF's, 135 mains, 175 airs, F111, 50 idles, Engle 110, 30mm, 009, single QP, DD CHT 300*f, VDO oil always 180* Build: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=541370
1970 convertible bug, 1835cc, single 40IDF, disks.
Symptoms Solved and Fixed http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=551358 |
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[email protected]
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2002
Posts: 12785
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
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| Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 8:19 pm Post subject: |
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Torn engine seals, forgetting to shift gears, etc.
_________________
It's just advice, do whatever you want with it!
Please do NOT send me Private Messages through the Samba PM System (I will not see them). Send me an e-mail to john at aircooled dot net
"Like" our Facebook page at
http://www.facebook.com/vwpartsaircoolednet
and get a 5% off code for use on one order for VW Parts ON OUR PARTS STORE WEBSITE, vwparts.aircooled.net |
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sambabus
Samba Member
Joined: December 02, 2009
Posts: 324
Location: N. Cal
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| Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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I didn't have a gear after forth. All stock equipment in good condition.
_________________
1971 Westy, 2017cc 78.4 x 90.5 Tims Stage 1 plus 42x37, CB 44IDF's, 135 mains, 175 airs, F111, 50 idles, Engle 110, 30mm, 009, single QP, DD CHT 300*f, VDO oil always 180* Build: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=541370
1970 convertible bug, 1835cc, single 40IDF, disks.
Symptoms Solved and Fixed http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=551358 |
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neil68
Samba Member
Joined: March 17, 2007
Posts: 3440
Location: Calgary, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:39 pm Post subject: flaps |
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I've run without a thermostat before, but still retaining the flaps, and the engine just takes a few minutes longer to warm up. Running without the flaps would be quite different...
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Der Kleiner Rennwagens
68 Beetle 2332 cc, 204 WHP
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Eaallred
Samba Member
Joined: May 18, 2003
Posts: 5756
Location: West Valley City, Utah
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| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 8:33 am Post subject: |
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| sambabus wrote: |
| I thought the stock cooling system was only good for 40-50 hp continuous? For example, on the freeway, I have been able to get a stock 1600 hot. That motor only makes 50-60 hp on a good day. And why do so many stock motors get baked? |
VW's were designed so that their top speed was also their top cruising speed. They were designed for WOT on the highway (it is also stated that the oil light flickering at idle after a long highway drive is deemed normal). The cooling system surpassed the heat output of the engine. Problem is, there aren't many completely stock systems out there anymore. Then when people have issues, they think it's a design failure of the car itself. They overlook that they are no longer running the original design of the system.
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Eric Allred
You have to remember something: Everybody pities the weak; Jealousy you have to earn. |
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sambabus
Samba Member
Joined: December 02, 2009
Posts: 324
Location: N. Cal
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| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 9:02 am Post subject: |
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| Eaallred wrote: |
| sambabus wrote: |
| I thought the stock cooling system was only good for 40-50 hp continuous? For example, on the freeway, I have been able to get a stock 1600 hot. That motor only makes 50-60 hp on a good day. And why do so many stock motors get baked? |
VW's were designed so that their top speed was also their top cruising speed. They were designed for WOT on the highway (it is also stated that the oil light flickering at idle after a long highway drive is deemed normal). The cooling system surpassed the heat output of the engine. Problem is, there aren't many completely stock systems out there anymore. Then when people have issues, they think it's a design failure of the car itself. They overlook that they are no longer running the original design of the system. |
I guess what I'm saying is the stock setup was not designed to keep up with today's freeway speeds and still run cool.
I just looked up the top speed in fourth gear for a 71 bus and the manual said 68 mph. Posted speed limit around here is 65 but you know, if there isn't much traffic, most people are doing closer to 75. Trying to keep up with traffic would put the motor out of its stock design range in this case. And if you get out on the interstate, traffic is going even faster. I know the bus is NOT a good example for speed, but even bugs will have trouble with this.
_________________
1971 Westy, 2017cc 78.4 x 90.5 Tims Stage 1 plus 42x37, CB 44IDF's, 135 mains, 175 airs, F111, 50 idles, Engle 110, 30mm, 009, single QP, DD CHT 300*f, VDO oil always 180* Build: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=541370
1970 convertible bug, 1835cc, single 40IDF, disks.
Symptoms Solved and Fixed http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=551358
Last edited by sambabus on Fri Apr 18, 2014 1:01 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Mr. Fickits
Samba Member
Joined: August 16, 2005
Posts: 94
Location: Reno,NV
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| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 10:23 am Post subject: |
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| I have same cooling components (fan, shroud, sheetmetal,etc) as my previous motor (1776) and it ran great and came right up to operating temp and stayed there without t_stat or flaps. I've never had a race fan, just running a stock fan and stock pulleys. |
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bluebus86
Banned
Joined: September 02, 2010
Posts: 11075
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| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:35 pm Post subject: Re: Engine running too cool? |
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| Mr. Fickits wrote: |
Recently finished my 1904cc build and got it in the car. Runs great but the oil and heads just aren't getting up to operating temp. Should I be concerned? The jetting is close (not perfect yet). timing is 10/30 with the 009. Engine specs below.
1904cc 74 x 90.5 balanced
Aluminum super case
043 heads 40 x 35 p&p
52cc chambers, mirror polish
.038 decks
9.2:1
running 91 octane
26mm Schadek full flow'd
Gibbs HR1 15w50 conventional oil
dual Weber 44idfs
1-5/8 stainless sidewinder exhaust
compufire ignition
I cannot get the oil over 180F degrees and heads over 250F. I have had the VDO senders and gauges for a while and have worked is the past. The CHT sender is under #3 spark plug, the temp sender is at the rear pressure relief in the case. |
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