building a 1914, fuel injected daily driver. need info

[andk5591]

Will be building an engine for a customer in the next couple months. The beetle will be a daily driver and their goal is reliable, easy to drive and able to keep up with traffic better. So good low end and midrange.

Looking at using the Holley Sniper or similar system, probably a hideaway style exhaust.

I prefer using Engle cams BTW. Looking for cam and head recommendations... Once again, this is not a high performance application. Performance similar to a 2l type 4 is really all we are after. Thanks!
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D-Dubya Manx clone 1914. Ex wifes car.
Rosie 65 bug - My mostly stock daily driver.
Woodie 69 VW woodie (Hot VWs 7/12).
"John's car" 64 VW woodie - The first ever
Maxine 61 Cal-look bug - Ex-wifes car.
66 bug project - Real patina & Suby conversion
There's more, but not keeping them...

[94touring]

Quick plug, I have one of those Debbie's efi units I never used brand new in a box I'm looking to sell if that's of interest.

[Max Welton]

What would I do? Reach out to Mario at the dub shop.

https://thedubshop.com/

Max
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1967 Type-3 Fastback
Under the Knife https://shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=151582
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[TheVintageVw]

I have the Holley Sniper EFI on my single cab. Let me know if you have any specific questions.

[Alstrup]

Well, If it has to be fuel injected, whether you chose one of Mario´s or the Sniper doesnt matter much. The Sniper is probably the easiest to get to run fair for a beginner.
That said, - why shoot yourself in the foot already before you get started??? you say you prefer Engle cams... Fair enough, some like the mom and some like the daughter. BUT, the mom has no cams in their range which suits what you wanna do well. The closest is probably an FK41 with stock rockers, and even that one is... not the best.
Remember, the limitation in the system will be the end castings, unless modified accordingly.
Next, if you want it to perform well overall one of the best cams for such a set up would be the Nowak 40. Next the CB2280, then, if you want very good midrange torque over rpms the 2232. If you want a more "spirited" behavior you´d want the 2239. That is the most you can do without sacrificing idle quality. And NO, the W100 will not equal the 2239.
The better you match the end casting to the engine the better the engine will perform overall.
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[Brian_e]

Don't forget if you are going to run a center mounted throttle body like the sniper, you will need some way to get a ton of heat into the manifold. Also a warm air pipe up to the filter will help. Especially on a daily driver.

If you add the injectors down at the end castings, you will not need the heated manifold.

Brian
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So more or less the lazier and stupider you want to be, the nicer quality parts you need to buy.
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www.type-emotorsports.com

Type E Engine Parts and Supplies
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[boxer74]

I've got a Red-E Sniper kit on a 1679cc (8.3:1, Engle W90, 1.25 rockers) running currently in my super beetle. It was easy to get running and runs fairly well for what it is.

Port injection and even dual throttle bodies would be a nice improvement, but more expensive and not sure it would be necessary for a daily driver.

Brian's point about manifold heat is spot on. I'm running this exhaust: https://www.jbugs.com/product/50001-1-jbugs-vw-2-tip-exhaust-system-with-stainless-steel-tips.html. Cheap and effective. For a 1679cc, it's fine. Might even be fine for a 1915cc, but maybe a little too small. I had the O2 bung welded in where the #3 and #4 exhaust runners merge. Works well.

The sniper learning feature works reasonably well, but you still need to manually adjust the base fuel map in the areas that it doesn't learn, such as during deceleration, or when there's rapid rate of change of the throttle position. You can leave it alone and it will still run, but it can be better with a bit of work.

The tunes shipped by Red-E are intentionally rich to be on the safe side. Most of this gets cleaned up after driving a lot in learn mode (CLT>140F). You also may need to play with cranking fuel and afterstart enrichment settings to get the cold start and warm up part running ideal too.

I've enjoyed running datalogs (which is easily done from the 3.5" handheld), pulling the SD card and analyzing a log against the fuel map. Fun to tune this way rather than playing with carb jets, but that's just me.

Red-E modifies the sniper to work with SVDA distributors. I am using a CSP Pacemaker Bluetooth (123 internals) with vac source taken from the aftermarket manifold. This allows me to set 10 deg at idle and 30 deg all in.

Happy to answer any questions you may have about the sniper experience.

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74 Super
84 Westy

[andk5591]

Lots of good info. Please keep it coming. Thanks!
_________________
D-Dubya Manx clone 1914. Ex wifes car.
Rosie 65 bug - My mostly stock daily driver.
Woodie 69 VW woodie (Hot VWs 7/12).
"John's car" 64 VW woodie - The first ever
Maxine 61 Cal-look bug - Ex-wifes car.
66 bug project - Real patina & Suby conversion
There's more, but not keeping them...

[Alstrup]

I know I´m about to hijack this threead, but I do find that it should be a part of this discussion.
So, let me ask this: What makes a $ 2000 "electric carb" fuel injection an interesting alternative to a modified 34 & 37 mm Solex which will do the same for what, 500 bucks and an afternoon of tuning?
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https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=435993

[BFB]

[andk5591]

[esde]

I've built an MS2 unit and love it. If I wanted a turn key unit for daily driving, I'd get a Dubshop basic system with a micro squirt controller.
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modok wrote:
Bent cranks are silent but gather no moss. I mean, ah, something like that.

[jimmyhoffa]

[andk5591]

[Brian_e]

The main difference between the stock VW EFI setup and Jim's Honda like setup Vs. the sniper stuff is the injectors in the end castings, and this is 100% what makes the difference in drive-ability.

Not sure if you have ever tried to drive a VW with a stock center mount in cold or even cool weather with little or no manifold heat, or a heat riser, but they suck. They run super rich, they make crappy power, and they tend to flood themselves after shutdown. Google latent heat of vaporization.

Same exact problems occur with ANY system that adds fuel 1.5 feet away at the entrance rather than right at the end of the manifold. With the center mount EFI, the computer will just keep running in circles trying to add more fuel to keep it alive, but then pull fuel out because its running so rich.

If you want it to drive like a civic, copy exactly what Jim did. He knows his stuff. I would warn you, it will take lots of tinkering on your end after the install to get it dialed in. Then when you leave town and change elevation, you will need to get out the laptop, and start tinkering again. After a few 1000 miles and lots of elevation change testing you will hopefully have it pretty close to dialed, but don't be thinking it will drive like a civic on the first trip around the block.

I am not trying to be a total downer, but after my VERY expensive EFI install, and a 3500 mile cross country road trip with it, I would have rather had a pair of dirty, half worn out kadron's on my 2332 for that trip. I too thought it would be all unicorns, fluffy clouds, perfect drive-ability, and fantastic MPG, but it was none of those things for me. It was more like get the laptop out at every stop, read data logs, make changes, hope it works..... Maybe I had too high of hopes.

I ditched all of it, and went back to China 44IDF's. Now I am back to worry free driving, super simple trouble shooting, better throttle response, and equal or better MPG. All for about $3500 less.

Brian
_________________
So more or less the lazier and stupider you want to be, the nicer quality parts you need to buy.
-Modok


www.type-emotorsports.com

Type E Engine Parts and Supplies
https://type-emotorsports.com/collections/engine-parts

[boxer74]

My Vanagon has Mansispeed's EFI kit, which uses Microsquirt and includes a second MAP sensor for barometric pressure compensation. It was a well thought out system that has required none of the tinkering that Brian_E outlined above. That said, it was designed for the stock Vanagon 2.1 MV engine which is what I'm basically using.

Dub Shop builds EFI kits for Type 1 engines and as we all know no Type 1 engine is the same unless bone stock. Therefore Mario can't give you a nicely dialed in VE table. Therefore it requires some user effort afterwards.

Kinda cool to play with VE Analyze Live in Tuner Studio though.

I think EFI vs. carb is just a personal choice. People that sink all their money into EFI aren't always doing it for performance gains. Some are techie types (myself included) that like making adjustments with the laptop and seeing the engine respond different rather than dialing in a carburetor.

The number times my wife complained about the gas smell all over my clothes and in the garage while I was dialing in some dual webers years ago had me glad I've gone down the EFI path. Hard to put a price on keeping your better half happy.

The Red-E sniper kit appeals to me and others because it has been loaded with the necessary software adjustments to work out of the box for most people.

If you're not after high performance, but like high tech upgrades to your ACVW, I think it's a nice upgrade. It's not cheap, but I don't regret buying it. It requires WAY less effort to get running nicely than a kit from the Dub Shop. If you're willing to put in the effort, the results from a port injection setup from the Dub Shop are likely much better.

But having said all that, I'm enjoying driving my bug this spring with the sniper. On to the next project...
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74 Super
84 Westy

[Brian_e]

Yes, it is all 100% preference.

For my road trip vehicle, I want it to be dead reliable, super easy to trouble shoot, and even easier to fix on the side of the road if need be. I carried spare parts for every piece of the EFI system, but trouble shooting it is much more difficult, and far more involved.

My wife was getting good at adjusting fuel and timing maps from the passenger seat while I told her numbers. She was over it by the time we got to our destination.

I also did the 2nd MAP sensor, but the software wouldn't altitude adjust no matter what I tried. If I had someone who was a MSquirt expert go through the whole thing and rework it all, it would most likely be way better, but I didn't have access to anyone like that.

By the end of our trip, I had different fuel maps saved for different altitudes. I would stop and load the next one to keep the bus running good. With carbs, you barely notice any altitude change. They just work plenty good all the time.

I think most people get it tuned and think its amazing at their local altitude, but never leave that altitude. I did the same thing. I had it running awesome here in town. Near perfect tune. As soon as I left town and started changing elevations is when the tuning issues started.

It is neat to be able to adjust so many parameters so easily, and be able to see the results right away.

Brian
_________________
So more or less the lazier and stupider you want to be, the nicer quality parts you need to buy.
-Modok


www.type-emotorsports.com

Type E Engine Parts and Supplies
https://type-emotorsports.com/collections/engine-parts

[boxer74]

So if a sniper setup costs $2000 and I could get the same performance out of a $500 carb setup, but keep my clothes smelling fresh and keep my wife happy (provided I don't tell her about the $1500 cost for her happiness), then I'm good with that!
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74 Super
84 Westy

[Alstrup]

The converted Mex system is an entirely different ball game as the injectors are placed just above the cylinder heads, as they should be. for milder engines it can be a nice set up. There is till the same performance limit. Not quite sure where it is, but somewhere around 100 hp. However, there is still the price tag. With the converted Mex system there is also a real option of improving fuel efficiency. i have never messed much with them, but I knnow people who has, and they have been able to reach very impressive overall figures. but, once again, it is not something you do in an evenings time.

Now, IMHO the 34 Solex, - and its modified sisters (37 & 39) are vastly underrated and misunderstood carbs. I will agree that on a 1600 displacement they - can - be a bit of a challenge to get to run right if you are not strict with your build. But on say a 1776 or a 1914, coupled with a better center section, the picture changes complestely. If you maintain a decent manifoild heat as well as proper pre heat to the aircleaner (Not necessary if you live in Ca or Texas or similar) and and make a couple of small changes to the carburettor it can run flawless, also during cold start and warm up.
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[jimmyhoffa]

I don't know how meaningful this data point is, but that perfectly serviceable engine tuned like a Japanese economy car is under my garage stairs, and I have $400 worth of EMPI carbs stacked on the engine in my car now.

Without going EFI with ITBs, you do hit a wall around 100hp with most of the popular intake parts, and really if you go center fueling and don't have port injection, you sorta lose the other benefit. In summary, I don't think I'd go Sniper or similar unless it was also gonna have a fat turbo. So in keeping with Samba tradition, I'd suggest you get a 82mm crank, trade for B pistons, and do the sniper but get a turbo exhaust and boost it. (lol perfect Segway from him being curious about EFI options on a mild 69x94.)
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1974 Chenowth 2RL #1244 Street Legal
My other car isn't ridiculous.