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EverettB 
Administrator
Joined: April 11, 2000
Posts: 71606
Location: Phoenix 602
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jsnoles1
Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2012
Posts: 21
Location: Tallahassee, FL
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 Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2020 10:02 am Post subject: Re: Shifter differences |
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| I have a EMPI trigger shifter I was going to install in my 60 double cab. However my first attempt resulted in what I read in this thread, almost impossible to shift. I've deduced the shifter I have is for a later model since it appears the bottom of the shaft with the ball is longer than it needs to be. Also, I am missing any kind of spacer plate or reverse lockout plate and I haven't been able to find one. Any suggestions either on where to find the necessary plate/s or how I can make this thing work? |
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BarryL
Samba Member
Joined: November 01, 2004
Posts: 15274
Location: Casa de Oro, California
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| Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2020 3:27 pm Post subject: Re: Shifter differences |
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| I've heard of people putting washers to shim up the shifter to the correct height with longer bolts but I've never done one. If I did I'd try to use fender washers if they will fit into the floor stamping recess. |
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farnhamassoc
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2010
Posts: 129
Location: Riverside ca
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| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2020 9:55 am Post subject: 66 67 shifters |
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| bill may wrote: |
| Clara wrote: |
I don't know about Berg shifters.
I have had several busses. and my 66 has the best shifting and it is all original parts that I know of. I believe the 66 has also a spacer that goes under the shifter coupler. the shifter on my 66 is back more to the seat and closer to the driver. Much easier to shift. My friend back in the 80s had a 66 same shift position back and near the driver seat. I am wondering if these late models incorporated a short shift system. Anyone else have the same.... just want to see
from the gallery:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_search.php?...t_dir=DESC
| hazetguy wrote: |
Many times people install random shifters and don't think about the consequences. A not uncommon complaint is that once the new shifter is installed, the shifting is extremely stiff or totally impossible. Or conversely, that the shifter ball does not even engage the front shift rod.
Chances are that a 66-67 shifter has been installed in an earlier bus, or an earlier shifter has been installed in a later bus.
On the left is a 60-65 shifter.
On the right is a 66-67 shifter.
Notice the different length of the lower part of the shifter. Installing the later shifter in an earlier bus will cause the stiffness or no movement.
Installing an earlier shifter in a 66-67 bus may cause the shifter to not even engage the shift rod.
The proper shifter must be installed in the correct application. |
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a Berg Shifter will have same distance as 60-65 on left and 66/67 on right. the 60-65 has same distance as beetle but have longer shaft-this why the hood rodes use a 60-65 bus shifter so the shift knob is up high.
_________________
Owned Countless VWs over the last 35 years.
Restored near 100 vws.
80 Rabbit diesel 1.9 TDI turbo 45mpg
06 Jetta TDI 45mpg
Restored several 11 window kombi and standard
Current inventory 66 delux hard top, so23
60 ragtop and 61 hard top bugs 54 hardtop bug
67 tin top so42 62 SO10 ruthmann bucket truck |
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C.C.C.
Samba Member
Joined: November 01, 2006
Posts: 520
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| Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 6:49 pm Post subject: Re: Shifter differences |
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| Can anyone tell me if there are different height shifter covers/springs over the years 50-67? |
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Okie Adam
Samba Member
Joined: November 07, 2003
Posts: 1348
Location: OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOklahoma
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| Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2020 8:53 am Post subject: Re: Shifter differences |
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| EverettB wrote: |
Someone asked me today how to tell a Bay Window shifter from a 66-67 shifter.
Anyone have both on hand to post any photos of differences and/or measurements? |
I have been curious about this in the past myself but never had the opportunity to first hand see a side by side. Not to go too far to the dark side but I wonder if there are different bay shifters like early vs late? I have and have only ever had one late bay and it seems like the shifter is almost turned towards the driver somewhat.
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Oil Capital Air Cooled
55 Wolfsburg Kombi
60 Walkthrough Kombi
62 Single Cab
66 21window
67 so42
76 Westy
64 Karmann Ghia |
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BarryL
Samba Member
Joined: November 01, 2004
Posts: 15274
Location: Casa de Oro, California
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David Raistrick
Samba Member
Joined: January 26, 2004
Posts: 634
Location: Geneva, Florida
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| Posted: Sun Dec 29, 2024 2:42 pm Post subject: Re: Shifter differences |
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had the shifter install battle today. thanks to this thread and https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=463393 I was finally figured out why it's such a pain.
My pin just falls out - and yeah, it's spring loaded. here are some detail shots - including the factory peening around the head (the hole the head sits in), and my attempts to make it stay.
re-peening did not work, but welding a few little dabs around the edge, filing them down, then pressing it in worked.
when the pin DOESNT fall out, it's not so bad to install - just the usual pain. with it loose, it's near impossible - between it falling out or sliding rear (FIF) and binding.... when it's in there, a simple align-and-press works (because the spring lets it pop into place), then you just hold and magic.
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...david - '66 SO-44 #231 |
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70bus
Samba Member
Joined: July 15, 2004
Posts: 1454
Location: P.O.
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| Posted: Sun Dec 29, 2024 5:03 pm Post subject: Re: Shifter differences |
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Thanks for the tip! Need to get a little welder for this, as - like you - I found peening it at home is a laugh... and that putting the damn thing in with a loose pin is no fun. I usually tape it in and cross fingers. As a bonus, a loose pin sometimes gets stuck in the shifter spring or something.
For what it is worth, I have had two long-time shops tell me the pin was NEVER peened in. Considering the visible peening marks, they are wrong, but perhaps they've never seen a non-loose one.
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Craig K
70 Neunsitzer
65 Pritschenwagen
"If Von Dutch was alive, he'd walk in there with a pistol and shoot these people." - Robert Williams
Raul the 65 singlecab
Karl the 70 nine-seater |
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JeffL
Samba Member
Joined: September 04, 2004
Posts: 1435
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2025 12:55 pm Post subject: Re: Shifter differences |
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I have puzzle coming to me. I am looking to buy a 75 Brazilian bus restored as a 1961.
The shifter bracket looks to be a 66/67 and the rod (due to the dual coupler) possibly earlier. I may have to take it apart to be sure what mods they made
The shifter is loose/wide as I can see from the person I had check it over for me.
I have some great rebuild photos. One shows an angle, bolt and nut made to replace the 66/67 centering pin for the front shaft. Is it in the correct location up/dn I will have to measure
The first sketch is from my Bentley manual and I put the two images together so that I can see how much lower shift rod sits in the 66/67. This also shows how much longer the base of the shifter is for the 66/67. If my scaling is close to correct, I would say it’s 8 mm longer.
The second sketches from parts manual. It shows that the 66/67 bracket is welded in and is part of the frame where the earlier models are removable. It also shows a bushing part 19 that does not show in the prior Bentley drawing? Any ideas why?
Also, I am concerned I will not be able to drop the front rod as it seems to be trapped with the double coupling unless it is custom to allow the rod the slip/collapse. My bet would be they put the shift rod in and slid the transmission up into the rear coupling…..
The third photo shows the coupling, which has two screws, which is earlier. Now I have to wonder if they drilled a hole in the front part of an early shift rod to accept the centering bolt or they welded a “necked down” tip on the back of a 66/67 rod to fit in the coupling with two screw screws.
The final photo shows the fabrication photo where you can clearly see the screw with the nut.
I will have to measure to figure out how to correct the excess play. It could be the shifter, rod, lack of any bushings.
Does the 66/67 front shift rod have a different offset than the earlier ones since it sits lower to the bottom of the cab (I would think so to get the shift rod centered when it goes into the main broad housing to the back)? That could also help me determine if I have the correct shift rod.
And so that is my puzzle. Thanks for any help/ideas. Here is a picture of her too.
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JeffL
Samba Member
Joined: September 04, 2004
Posts: 1435
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| Posted: Tue May 27, 2025 6:34 am Post subject: Re: Shifter differences |
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I had the next Bentley manual and opened it to find the shifter “guide sleeve” shown here. Part 211 711 197
One photo is from a supplier on the Samba clearly showing the part
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Simonvwuk
Samba Member
Joined: January 27, 2015
Posts: 1
Location: Broadstairs United Kingdon
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2025 1:03 am Post subject: Re: Shifter differences |
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Hi I'm getting really confused with my 1966 crew cabs gear linkage as well.
It's the later type with the pin.
All was working fine before I started working on fitting a new narrowed lowered beam.
What a mission, I wouldn't have done it if I thought i have so many problems.
I'm not sure it's me or the suppliers of the parts.
The gear shift rod doesn't fit through the beam with clearance to idler arm and lowering brackets.
I solved that problem and fitted a new gear rod.
This sits smoothly on the pin but the ball of the empi shifter doesn't sit into the rod. It did before I replaced the gear rod.
Is there more than 1 rod that sits up higher like the old ones?
Or should I convert to earlier bracket style? |
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JeffL
Samba Member
Joined: September 04, 2004
Posts: 1435
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2025 6:49 am Post subject: Re: Shifter differences |
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| Simonvwuk wrote: |
Hi I'm getting really confused with my 1966 crew cabs gear linkage as well.
It's the later type with the pin.
All was working fine before I started working on fitting a new narrowed lowered beam.
What a mission, I wouldn't have done it if I thought i have so many problems.
I'm not sure it's me or the suppliers of the parts.
The gear shift rod doesn't fit through the beam with clearance to idler arm and lowering brackets.
I solved that problem and fitted a new gear rod.
This sits smoothly on the pin but the ball of the empi shifter doesn't sit into the rod. It did before I replaced the gear rod.
Is there more than 1 rod that sits up higher like the old ones?
Or should I convert to earlier bracket style? |
Certainly I would think the 66/67 shifter sits lower and could run into a modified beam. Going to the earlier should help
Here I bought a NOS German shifter. Replacing the shifter and tightening the mount helped my case. The Brazilian shifter is on the right and had wear at the bottom.
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Clara
Samba Member
Joined: June 14, 2003
Posts: 12618
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2025 3:01 pm Post subject: Re: Shifter differences |
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| David Raistrick wrote: |
had the shifter install battle today…
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Where the flat part on the shift stick circle is? Top right of the picture. It should be a full circle, but wears flat when you put it in reverse.
Of course, liberally grease the ball and socket and skirt when installing.
If excessively worn, you’ll be able to put it in reverse w/ o pushing down. This can be tricky if you are looking for second and get reverse.
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Clara
Samba Member
Joined: June 14, 2003
Posts: 12618
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2025 3:15 pm Post subject: Re: Shifter differences |
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| JeffL wrote: |
I have puzzle coming to me. I am looking to buy a 75 Brazilian bus restored as a 1961.
The shifter bracket looks to be a 66/67 and the rod (due to the dual coupler) possibly earlier. I may have to take it apart to be sure what mods they made
The shifter is loose/wide as I can see from the person I had check it over for me.
I have some great rebuild photos. One shows an angle, bolt and nut made to replace the 66/67 centering pin for the front shaft. Is it in the correct location up/dn I will have to measure
The first sketch is from my Bentley manual and I put the two images together so that I can see how much lower shift rod sits in the 66/67. This also shows how much longer the base of the shifter is for the 66/67. If my scaling is close to correct, I would say it’s 8 mm longer.
The second sketches from parts manual. It shows that the 66/67 bracket is welded in and is part of the frame where the earlier models are removable. It also shows a bushing part 19 that does not show in the prior Bentley drawing? Any ideas why?
Also, I am concerned I will not be able to drop the front rod as it seems to be trapped with the double coupling unless it is custom to allow the rod the slip/collapse. My bet would be they put the shift rod in and slid the transmission up into the rear coupling…..
The third photo shows the coupling, which has two screws, which is earlier. Now I have to wonder if they drilled a hole in the front part of an early shift rod to accept the centering bolt or they welded a “necked down” tip on the back of a 66/67 rod to fit in the coupling with two screw screws.
The final photo shows the fabrication photo where you can clearly see the screw with the nut.
I will have to measure to figure out how to correct the excess play. It could be the shifter, rod, lack of any bushings.
Does the 66/67 front shift rod have a different offset than the earlier ones since it sits lower to the bottom of the cab (I would think so to get the shift rod centered when it goes into the main broad housing to the back)? That could also help me determine if I have the correct shift rod.
And so that is my puzzle. Thanks for any help/ideas. Here is a picture of her too.
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To remove the beam, first remove the front shift rod. You need to remove the shifter in the cab, and undo the couple at the back of the front shift rod. It may be stuck. There are threads on here about that.
The rear shift rod is installed before the transmission. To remove it you must remove the tranny first, unless you want to remove the nose of the bus. Which I have done to a junk bus, fwiw. You don’t do this to a bus you want to drive.
When the front shift rod is off, inspect the front plastic bushing and replace if worn.
You can pull the rear shift rod forward and replace the middle shift bush with the transaxle in place. To replace the rear bushing, remove the transaxle.
If I am not removing the trans, that rear bush is ignored for now.
If the trans is out, do take the time to replace the rear bushes if they are worn.
Replacing the front bushing can remove a lot of slop from the shifter.
Hope that helps.
The wiring of the square headed bolts is incorrect. Wire each separately, around the rod, in a way to keep them from unscrewing
The last picture is pretty blurry
The shift sticks are this much differnt in length
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JeffL
Samba Member
Joined: September 04, 2004
Posts: 1435
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| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2025 1:46 pm Post subject: Re: Shifter differences |
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It seems the rear rod is early with 2 ends and they modified the front rod to have a small end and use the double coupling. The small front had the captive 66/67 shifting pin.
I’ve bought all parts to make it 66/67 compliant.
Update
New shift rods came in. The alignment is the same as the Brazil repair but 10mm longer.
The double ended rear rod was 22 mm in diameter and correct 66/67 rod 18 mm. The clip on buffers fit now.
Overall length from front of rod to center of coupler screw is 2445 mm.
I need some new buffers then can install. I bought a more correct coupler to the transmission.
Modified rod that came in the Brazil bus is on the top. It worked fine but as I am having the transaxle repaired I wanted to correct it to a standard configuration.
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