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pgtips
Samba Member
Joined: July 23, 2009
Posts: 879
Location: essex
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 Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2025 9:37 am Post subject: automatic lost power no drive |
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Hi,
I unexpectedly lost all drive on the motorway but the engine kept running on my auto bus.
I finally got the engine and gearbox out and sent it away and its been diagnosed as torque converter pump drive splines have stripped.
Thankfully its away with a gearbox company but not sure how its going to pan out for parts availability but wanted to post up in case anyone else has a problem with their automatic bus losing drive/reverse etc.
there are many other reasons such as CV joints come off, low fluid etc but this one (splines) is a new one (to me).
PG
_________________
1975 1.8l FI Auto Westy - Subaru converted
1971 356 kit 1600 TP - semi/stickshift
1971 1302 LS - semi/stickshift
Trim ring info here -> http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=559668
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=451210
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=479721 |
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Shonandb 
Samba Member
Joined: January 12, 2019
Posts: 2024
Location: Vancouver, BC
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| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2025 12:22 pm Post subject: Re: automatic lost power no drive |
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Damn, sorry to hear this. I've never heard of the splines stripping before so maybe the pump must have seized up somehow.
Did the splines at the pump end or at the torque converter end strip?
_________________
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76 Westy with a 2.5L Subaru SOHC + Vanagon (010) Automatic Transaxle
Build & Trip Thread: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=758760
Previous 1973 Panel Bus:
Click to view image |
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pgtips
Samba Member
Joined: July 23, 2009
Posts: 879
Location: essex
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 42381
Location: at the beach
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| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2025 2:53 pm Post subject: Re: automatic lost power no drive |
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| pgtips wrote: |
| Shonandb wrote: |
Did the splines at the pump end or at the torque converter end strip? |
Good question and I'm not 110% certain yet as I haven't spoken to him since he messaged me (to tell me it was the spline.)
Hopefully more info tomorrow , fingers crossed it's a source able/replaceable part |
The transmissions were used in a lot of vehicles besides VW buses. The parts should be available reproduction or good used. If it is the oil pump shaft 090 323 561 - they are still available from VW for about $53 EU. Just guessing based on the parts fiche and your description of the part.
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"Most people don't know what they're doing, and a lot of them are really good at it." - George Carlin |
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pgtips
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Joined: July 23, 2009
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Location: essex
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 42381
Location: at the beach
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| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2025 11:02 pm Post subject: Re: automatic lost power no drive |
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part I listed is for a 010. You may have a 003. Here are a couple resources I found. Maybe the part is at the bottom of this page? If so, it looks like there are quite a few sizes available. Also, anytime the engine goes and the wheels do not - always check to make sure that a CV joint has not failed. If any one of the 4 CV joints fail, the transmission flange will spin but the bus will go no where. Sounds like you already checked for that.
https://mmerlinn.com/catalog/lil_wane111/vw_003/vw003580.htm
Also this thread. Read it to the end because it also lists another thread with 003 resources. https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=570692
The person posting is still active here.
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"Most people don't know what they're doing, and a lot of them are really good at it." - George Carlin |
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pgtips
Samba Member
Joined: July 23, 2009
Posts: 879
Location: essex
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wagen19
Samba Member
Joined: November 16, 2007
Posts: 648
Location: germany
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2025 1:51 am Post subject: Re: automatic lost power no drive |
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| pgtips wrote: |
yes it's 010, I swapped over from 003.
CV joints one if the first checks as I've had that failure in the past. Also fluid levels, although I could only check cold it had plenty. |
It seems, you have a Subaru conversion in your bus.
Can this matter have something to do with your issue?
Thinking not only about engine power and torque, but also on central position of crank and trans drivetrain or loose bolts between engine and trans.
What is known about max power and torque for your 010 trans?
How many miles has your conversion?
Did the problem happen under heavy load?
Was there unnormal noise or something like that, just before the break down?
(I remember, the very first Bays with Automatic trans, were not allowed for pulling a trailer) |
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pgtips
Samba Member
Joined: July 23, 2009
Posts: 879
Location: essex
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2025 2:21 am Post subject: Re: automatic lost power no drive |
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Hi,
I thought about this too but its hard to say, 50 years old anything could be a weak link.
Its not a common problem but it does happen.
Don't forget its only driving fluid , the impeller, so not under any huge strain regardless of engine.
I was just poodling along normally, late at night on the motorway maybe 60 or 70mph and then without warning or any noises the engine started to rev higher but no power. No warning at all. No clunks, bangs or bolts being spewed out, it just stopped pushing fwd.
I don't thrash it about and the expected weakness would be torque converter flex plate and/or bolts but all was ok there. I think I read somewhere once they are quite able to handle the extra hp up to 300 but I have no idea where or who would have actually tested that.
I've done thousands of miles around the UK and this conversion, done by me, is maybe 8 years old now.
I really don't know, old vehicles, just one of those things.
PG
_________________
1975 1.8l FI Auto Westy - Subaru converted
1971 356 kit 1600 TP - semi/stickshift
1971 1302 LS - semi/stickshift
Trim ring info here -> http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=559668
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=451210
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=479721 |
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 42381
Location: at the beach
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2025 9:29 am Post subject: Re: automatic lost power no drive |
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maybe upgrade to the 010 trans in a late bay, or a vanagon transmission. I think parts are easier to come by, and maybe the vanagon transmission handles more power.
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"Most people don't know what they're doing, and a lot of them are really good at it." - George Carlin |
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pgtips
Samba Member
Joined: July 23, 2009
Posts: 879
Location: essex
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2025 9:36 am Post subject: Re: automatic lost power no drive |
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hi,
its already 010 but like hens teeth.
currently spread the net to Audi 80/90 VW 010, 087, 090
but its not great here in the UK, they're out there but my option might be to get it rebuilt. Now I know its in later Audis then fair chance they'll stock spline replacements.
Diameter: 10.5"
Spline: 26
Pilot: 0.825" DIAMETER
Hub: 1.648" INNER BUSHING
Mounting: 3 LUGS
Part numbers would be excellent but again just nothing.
PG
_________________
1975 1.8l FI Auto Westy - Subaru converted
1971 356 kit 1600 TP - semi/stickshift
1971 1302 LS - semi/stickshift
Trim ring info here -> http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=559668
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=451210
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=479721 |
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Shonandb
Samba Member
Joined: January 12, 2019
Posts: 2024
Location: Vancouver, BC
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2025 10:43 am Post subject: Re: automatic lost power no drive |
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I know of at least 10 Subaru conversions using both the 003 and the 010 automatics and haven't heard of any major issues.
Mick at Busaru drives his 73 with the Subaru swap and 03 in it hard both on and offroad and he lives in Colorado.
I read that the 010 can handle up to about 250hp without any mods but I'm not sure about the 03.
When I did my search pre-swap, some of the concerns were the heat generated from the additional HP of the Subaru could cause premature wear on the internals so I sourced and installed a 010 from a Vanagon so that I had the external transmission oil cooler option.
I've had 40,000+ uneventful kms on my 2.5L SOHC swap and I regularly pull a trailer in the mountains.
I recently installed a sensor and gauge for trans fluid temp and the output temp gets up to about 120C while pulling a long hill at 120 kph before the cooler and is around 100C after the cooler flowing back into the transmission. Normal driving is around 95C coming out of the trans and 75C after the cooler. flowing back into the trans.
For the splines to strip, there must have been a seize up of the pump as there shouldn't have been anything internally that would cause enough force to damage the splines under normal operation.
_________________
*******************************
76 Westy with a 2.5L Subaru SOHC + Vanagon (010) Automatic Transaxle
Build & Trip Thread: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=758760
Previous 1973 Panel Bus:
Click to view image |
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wagen19
Samba Member
Joined: November 16, 2007
Posts: 648
Location: germany
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2025 11:52 am Post subject: Re: automatic lost power no drive |
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| Shonandb wrote: |
I know of at least 10 Subaru conversions using both the 003 and the 010 automatics and haven't heard of any major issues.
Mick at Busaru drives his 73 with the Subaru swap and 03 in it hard both on and offroad and he lives in Colorado.
I read that the 010 can handle up to about 250hp without any mods but I'm not sure about the 03.
When I did my search pre-swap, some of the concerns were the heat generated from the additional HP of the Subaru could cause premature wear on the internals so I sourced and installed a 010 from a Vanagon so that I had the external transmission oil cooler option.
I've had 40,000+ uneventful kms on my 2.5L SOHC swap and I regularly pull a trailer in the mountains.
I recently installed a sensor and gauge for trans fluid temp and the output temp gets up to about 120C while pulling a long hill at 120 kph before the cooler and is around 100C after the cooler flowing back into the transmission. Normal driving is around 95C coming out of the trans and 75C after the cooler. flowing back into the trans.
For the splines to strip, there must have been a seize up of the pump as there shouldn't have been anything internally that would cause enough force to damage the splines under normal operation. |
Shifting under load. I´m regarding, thinking about and try to compare the complete flywheel mass incl. complete crank.
If there is also a only a very slight difference of angle from crank through converter to trans, or due to weak engine and, or, trans mounts, brutal moments can exist for short time only and beginn to crack the splines. Or if there is much wear on parts inside of torque converter. The engine conversion game often starts with unknown used parts from different vehicles. A worn converter with inner parts out of center can kill a trans.
The manufacturer of converter and trans should have made tests for max torque and power and know about it. More vehicle mass makes more stress and higher temperature to all components. Power makes heat, torque can make sudden cracks. (all imo only) |
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 42381
Location: at the beach
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2025 12:31 pm Post subject: Re: automatic lost power no drive |
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if you used the 010 in your conversion, then parts should be available. Good Luck.
_________________
"Most people don't know what they're doing, and a lot of them are really good at it." - George Carlin |
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pgtips
Samba Member
Joined: July 23, 2009
Posts: 879
Location: essex
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2025 12:42 pm Post subject: Re: automatic lost power no drive |
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| SGKent wrote: |
| if you used the 010 in your conversion, then parts should be available. Good Luck. |
I'm having a bear finding a TC so I may take the route of getting mine reconditioned. Honestly her in the UK they're impossible to find.
I found that Audi 80/90 , 411, T25s had same but I can't find.
There was some difference in stall speed ( haven't read up on that yet) but I'm sure any will do.
If anyone knows a part number please share.
Pg
_________________
1975 1.8l FI Auto Westy - Subaru converted
1971 356 kit 1600 TP - semi/stickshift
1971 1302 LS - semi/stickshift
Trim ring info here -> http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=559668
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=451210
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=479721 |
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 42381
Location: at the beach
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2025 1:29 pm Post subject: Re: automatic lost power no drive |
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deleted: duplicate
_________________
"Most people don't know what they're doing, and a lot of them are really good at it." - George Carlin
Last edited by SGKent on Thu Jun 19, 2025 4:22 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 42381
Location: at the beach
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2025 1:32 pm Post subject: Re: automatic lost power no drive |
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| pgtips wrote: |
| SGKent wrote: |
| if you used the 010 in your conversion, then parts should be available. Good Luck. |
I'm having a bear finding a TC so I may take the route of getting mine reconditioned. Honestly her in the UK they're impossible to find.
I found that Audi 80/90 , 411, T25s had same but I can't find.
There was some difference in stall speed ( haven't read up on that yet) but I'm sure any will do.
If anyone knows a part number please share.
Pg |
there are couple threads here in this forum discussing that. Have you looked? That said, there are companies who service them by replacing all the innards and welding them back up, or at least there used to be. I don't know about the UK. Try using the Google Search up above and you will get threads like this, some will even be Subaru specific. https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9962371
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"Most people don't know what they're doing, and a lot of them are really good at it." - George Carlin |
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wagen19
Samba Member
Joined: November 16, 2007
Posts: 648
Location: germany
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2025 1:56 pm Post subject: Re: automatic lost power no drive |
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| pgtips wrote: |
| SGKent wrote: |
| if you used the 010 in your conversion, then parts should be available. Good Luck. |
I'm having a bear finding a TC so I may take the route of getting mine reconditioned. Honestly her in the UK they're impossible to find.
I found that Audi 80/90 , 411, T25s had same but I can't find.
There was some difference in stall speed ( haven't read up on that yet) but I'm sure any will do.
If anyone knows a part number please share.
Pg |
Maybe Ray Greenwood has numbers for type 4 and Bay TCs.
Imo the international market situation with Automatic cars between around 1970 and 1990 was about, is:
Germany, Europe: only a few new cars sold, not that much km, miles >> now very rare.
USA: more or many new cars sold, but huge number of miles >> some cars and parts still on market, but mostly rather tired.
GB, Scandinavia or Japan I don´t know.
Who knows more and better?
SACHS and ZF has made TC´s, if I remenber correct. > have you already asked there? Sachs numbers?
What about later wbx? |
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SGKent
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Location: at the beach
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wagen19
Samba Member
Joined: November 16, 2007
Posts: 648
Location: germany
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2025 1:13 am Post subject: Re: automatic lost power no drive |
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Just an idea: "we" here on Samba start to make a international list, what kind of VW TC´s exist, with numbers and relation to cars, trans.
"We" try to get first hand info for tech specs for the parts.
(>> Porsche Sportomatic, NSU Ro 80)
Parts to get where from? used, rebuild ones, NOS
How about the costs for rebuilding a TC?
Is a core needed?
Can a old TC be upgraded to newer of different specs?
AND the same for Automatic trans types including costs.
Cars:
VW Type 1 Stickshift
mod 68 -70, 1500 ccm
mod 69-70, 1300 ccm
mod 71 to 75, 1300 ccm
mod 71 to ?, 1600 ccm
VW Type 3 Automatic
mod 68 to 73, 54 hp, 1,6l dual carb
mod 68 to 73, 54 hp, 1,6l D-Jet
VW Type 4 Automatic
mod 69 to 74, 68 hp, 1,7l dual carb
mod 70 to 73 (74) 80 hp, 1,7l D-Jet
mod 74, 75 hp, 1,8l dual carb
mod 74, 85 hp, 1,8l dual carb
mod 74, 76 hp, 1,8l L-Jet
Baywindow trans 03,
mod 72, 62 hp, 1,7l dual carb
and so on...
(assuming the 2,1l vanagon parts, or maybe from some Audi would be better to start with a stronger Subaru engine conversion)
If "we" want to use our old cars for the next 10 or 20 years, we have to think about the technical possibility in future NOW!
Cheap parts in usable condition from junkyards are nearly completely GONE! |
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