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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 10690
Location: Western WA
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 Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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I can still do that, if this method doesn't satisfy. Here's some pics of what's going on.
Filling the trans with motor oil 15W-40. It sucks the 15w-40 in just about as fast as you could pour it from a quart bottle. That gives some idea the volume being sprayed at 4th gear. 90 might flow well at 150*. ??
Here's the 200 micron screen of the Weddle filter.
Decided to add a pre-filter of paper towel
Wrapped around and held with broccoli bands.
Ready to pump oil. Only the filter, no radiator.
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, NEW oil rings (!) 2Peloquins, 3knobs, SyncroShop pressure-oiled pinion-bearing & GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox.
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered original gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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Waldi
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Joined: February 28, 2014
Posts: 1752
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 5:26 pm Post subject: Re: Flush transaxle after trans rebuild (extreme flush!) |
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| Sodo wrote: |
My transaxle ran in a horrible metal soup as it ground-up a (used) pinion bearing in 9,000 miles. It's re-rebuilt now but obviously there are remnants of that soup still in there. For example the differential was not disassembled/cleaned. And it's a Peloquin, who knows whats in there, would probably have to send it back to the MFR to disassemble.
I called Peloquin and he offered to clean it, but it's too late for that - the trans is in back in the van. I asked if I should put a 5w20 motor oil in there and run it on the stands for awhile to flush it out. Peloquin said yes that's a good idea and recommended to flush it 2x or 3x. He said I can remove one axle to spin everything in the differential.
I know this sounds like an awful lot of 'work' but I now have an onboard transaxle oil pump.
The plan is:
--- 1) Flush the transaxle twice (on the stands, spinning) with used motor oil
--- 2) Flush with clean 5w-20 motor oil (or lighter?) on stands (spinning)
--- 3) Drive it some miles with break-in gear oil (Lucas 80w-90)
--- 4) Replace with Swepco 201.
This will be happening later today or tomorrow. Can anybody think of other considerations regarding flushing a transaxle with light motor oil that I need to know? |
I always dissansamble and clean the diff. There is the most of dirt inside up to 3mm thick.
You will never get this out by changing oil. Full synthetik oil does the job best, but than you have all the shit all over in you box. Thats why i tell never to fill synthetik oil to a old gearbox. It solves the deposits and transport it to places where they shouldnt go to. Bearings etc.
Edit: attension for dissansamble the stock diffs. You can change the possision of the ring, but you have to mark the other 2 halfs and put it in same position together.
Last edited by Waldi on Tue Oct 27, 2015 5:44 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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syncrodoka
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Joined: December 27, 2005
Posts: 12357
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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Even with the tranny standing on end there is going to be fluid in the nose cone, you can't do a complete flush.
If you want to do it once do it right.  |
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Sodo
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Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 10690
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 5:56 pm Post subject: Re: Flush transaxle after trans rebuild (extreme flush!) |
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| Waldi wrote: |
I always dissansamble and clean the diff. There is the most of dirt inside up to 3mm thick.
You will never get this out by changing oil. Full synthetik oil does the job best, but than you have all the shit all over in you box. Thats why i tell never to fill synthetik oil to a old gearbox. It solves the deposits and transport it to places where they shouldnt go to. Bearings etc. |
Interesting stuff ! Yes I can see that you want old deposits to stay where they are.
The van is idling, 4th gear, no half-shafts, pump running/filtering, 15w-40 oil. trans temp is 117*F, ambient is 60*F. Its ass-end up, on wheel ramps. I need to hook up the shafts and change it to nose up tomorrow, and filter for awhile more. Maybe thin the oil with some solvent to get more stuff, I wonder what is OK for the seals?
I am on the 3rd pre-filter wrap. There is a LOT of trash in there. It's disheartening how much there is, but the filter is catching it. On the other side of the filter is sparkling clean oil. Thinking of what was in that trans from 0-9,000 miles gives me the willies.
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, NEW oil rings (!) 2Peloquins, 3knobs, SyncroShop pressure-oiled pinion-bearing & GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox.
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered original gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb
Last edited by Sodo on Tue Oct 27, 2015 6:12 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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Merian
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Joined: January 04, 2014
Posts: 5212
Location: Orygun
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| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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| the filter is catching the trash can be flushed out right now, not what cannot be reached, and not what is lodged in there until it breaks loose later on |
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Syncro Jael
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Joined: December 19, 2013
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Location: Utah
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| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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If you have your oil cooler, micron filter installed, it will be cleaning out the debris all the time. If the pump is rated high enough it will circulate the gear oil and pull contaminates very quickly.
Although the best scenario would have been to have a full disassembly.
_________________
1987 Syncro Westfalia Hightop - NAHT
Subaru EJ25 Forged Frankenmotor, Triple Knob.
Jael = (Mountain Goat) |
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Sodo
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Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 10690
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 6:34 pm Post subject: BOYS ! - CLEAN YOUR DIFFS ! |
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Agreed Ron. I think it benefits from the pre-filter paper & lighter oil in the beginning. I don't think you could use the pre-filter paper towel with 90wt. Probably should try ATF, for an oil that will splash around & wash real good.
Heres pics of the pre-filter of the first flush. Second flush looked the SAME ! I get the impression that the oil is circulating pretty good!
I ran it for awhile with one axle stopped, so the diff had to "work". I think the Peloquin probably has a LOT more capacity to hold trash than a normal diff.
I'm running it mostly with both flanges spinning (diff NOT diffing), idling in 4th gear Sometimes I run it up to 75 mph and hold it for a minute or so. All the while the pump is circulating oil thru the filter. In the driveway, axles OFF, its now up to 120*F, about 60* over ambient. I suspect MOST of this heat comes from the engine contact. SOme from a tight new pinion bearing perhaps, and stirring oil.
It 'plugged up' then blew a hole thru the paper. Blew a hole in 2nd filter too.
The paper filters good. Here's oil coming out of the paper/screen - its sparkling clean.
Heres the first 3 flushes. #1  are not much different, LOTS of stuff. #3 (top) has very few shiny filings. But the paper is dark, like it's catching the very fine dust. The oil isn't dark, it's clean like honey.
Tomorrow I will tip the van nose-up, and filter again, which will scavenge better out of the rear drain hole.
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, NEW oil rings (!) 2Peloquins, 3knobs, SyncroShop pressure-oiled pinion-bearing & GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox.
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered original gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb
Last edited by Sodo on Tue Oct 27, 2015 8:09 pm; edited 4 times in total |
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dobryan
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Joined: March 24, 2006
Posts: 17201
Location: Brookeville, MD
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Sodo
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Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 10690
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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| dobryan wrote: |
| Damn. Explain why you won't send that out to get professionally cleaned out? Not criticizing, although it sounds that way. 😀 |
Well Dave,
1) It's only been 11 hours since the realization that the differential wasn't cleaned. It may have been rinsed but I know it wasn't disassembled.
2) It appears that I'm getting the stuff out. It seems prudent to continue. Maybe change the 15w-40 a couple times. I'm still on the first batch of oil, ONLY changed filter-papers.
3) It would be a lot of work to remove trans, remove the diff, send diff to Peloquin, then re-assemble trans then reassemble the van. I can still do that but seems there is time to give it time.
4) I'm not convinced that anybody's trans will be any cleaner than mine. In fact mine with a circulating pump and filter might very well be cleaner than a trans with no circulating pump and filter.
5) Gary Peloquin told me to use a light oil like 5w-20, spinn it with no axles, change it 2 or 3 times. I think I got some pretty good advice there, and i'm going far beyond his advice, by filtering it with paper. And I can still change it 2 more times.
I sure wish a bunch of you guys were standing around in my wicked shop, beer in hand, discussing this to the end of the earth. I enjoy this stuff. Prefer NOT to take the trans out again though.
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, NEW oil rings (!) 2Peloquins, 3knobs, SyncroShop pressure-oiled pinion-bearing & GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox.
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered original gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb
Last edited by Sodo on Tue Oct 27, 2015 8:20 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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dobryan
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IdahoDoug
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Joined: June 12, 2010
Posts: 10357
Location: N. Idaho
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| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 11:02 pm Post subject: |
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Be sure you do it in reverse and same strategy with stopping one drive plate to engage the diff. The turbulence will be in reverse and pick stuff out that was missed in forward.
_________________
1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1993 Toyota LandCruiser, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader |
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djkeev
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Waldi
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Joined: February 28, 2014
Posts: 1752
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 4:07 am Post subject: |
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Here some pics how it looks inside a diff before cleaning.
No way to get this out without dissansambling because off the centrifugal force.
I dont know if a used peloquin looks the same.
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insyncro
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Joined: March 07, 2002
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| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 4:54 am Post subject: |
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A couple of motor oil flushes will make it all better 
Once again an example of brilliant DIY decision making.
Be ready to yank this transmission again.
It is only a matter of time...a very short time. |
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Waldi
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Location: Germany
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| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 5:53 am Post subject: |
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| insyncro wrote: |
...
It is only a matter of time...a very short time. |
I wouldnt say so. A box with 100k km looks simular and still can go over 100k. It is just not a proffesional (best) work.
Here a pic of my current tranny work. Diff opened 5 mins ago.
They look all the same.
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Sodo
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Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 10690
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 8:36 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the photos Waldi, I know it takes your time. Specific, ON-Topic pics are KING, and it helps everyone! Always appreciated in a discussion. I've seen sediment packed by centrifugal force in a gearbox, and there is no 'washing' or "flushing" that will remove it, only with pick, and a brush and solvent tank. And now everyone has seen it.
The Peloquin probably holds a lot of this - it is a cylinder shape. But my pump system moves a LOT of oil, and if any particle is suspended, my filter will catch it. If it is sedimented, there it remains with luck... . If suspended my filter will collect it. The pump is 2-3 gallons per minute so there are two or more fluid exchanges every 60 seconds. This is a much different system than the classic box where you only drain oil from one hole every 30,000 miles. Every particle suspended has a large chance to be filtered.
Doug I've been using forward, reverse, diffing, non-diffing, running all gears, idle, 3600 RPM, anything to stir it up. Mostly I just leave the van idling in 4th gear and do other stuff, return & make a change. I leave it spinning for about 30 minutes, that is about 120 exchanges of fluid. The next task is to tip it nose-up.
Dave if you consider the continuum where particulates increase (perhaps from zero (or not)) until fluid change every 30 or 60,000 miles and compare that to my system (that exchanges fluid perhaps 240 times every hour, filtered), I think my system has significant horsepower take care of the problem. The pre-filter paper shows the progression. It's pretty easy compared to disassembly.
I'll continue to change & inspect a few more pre-filters today, and if I start seeing clean pre-filters will make the final "DIY decision". Maybe an ATF fluid flush to get the particles smaller than my pre-filter paper. Then add the clean 90w break-in oil.
I like this paper-wrap option, I can perform a pre-filtering inspection anytime, (1,000 miles, 5,000 miles etc).
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, NEW oil rings (!) 2Peloquins, 3knobs, SyncroShop pressure-oiled pinion-bearing & GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox.
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered original gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb
Last edited by Sodo on Wed Oct 28, 2015 9:00 am; edited 2 times in total |
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djkeev
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Sodo
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Joined: July 06, 2007
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Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks Dave for preserving the topic.
Recap: Flushing trans because it was realized the differential was not properly cleaned (of metal contaminated oil) during transaxle rebuild. Not that everybody needs to do this but the exercise illustrates what a pump and filter can do.
Here's a pic of the 4th filter. These 4 filters represent clean 15W-40 motor oil pumped thru the trans during 2 hours of van idling in 4th gear with no axles. Plus a few attempts to disturb the fluid by reverse, forcing the diff gears to differentiate, and a little bit of time revving 3600rpm in 4th gear. All with ass-end up on ramps.
4th filter has a few metal bits, but mostly clean, clear fluid. Next I'll tip the front end up and see if more stuff comes out.
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, NEW oil rings (!) 2Peloquins, 3knobs, SyncroShop pressure-oiled pinion-bearing & GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox.
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered original gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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djkeev
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Waldi
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| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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| But where all the metal bits come from ? Didnt you dissambled and cleaned nothing ? |
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